Women rights in Islam

[Muslim Scholar]

Yes, this is regarding financial and political issues
It has two purposes
1- to keep women a bit away from those issues
2- Because women don't think the same as men (usually more emotional)

Do you think that this point is an important issue for you (as a women) or it is only the matter of equality that you consider.

I do see it as an important issue. Mostly because you use it as justification for your two points above. I disagree with that. There is no reason women can't be in a political or financial situation. While I agree that woman and men don't think the same, I disagree that it is more emotionally. It is just different. Different isn't wrong it is just different.

You may agree or not, but there are many facts supporting that women and men should be treated differently
(These are not proofs but very strong supporting evidences)

Many women (even in the western world) are discussing Motherhood vs. career; have you ever hear about men discussing the same????
It is because God created women more suitable to raise young children and care about home
The Islamic system is consistent with this view by obligating men to support women; it will be unfair to make women work and the same time care about children, or on the other side to make men and women equal in staying at home with children

Women are created physically less strong than men, men are usually more suitable for hard work outside home.
do you think that the Olympics should not separate women and men in different competitions?

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Men are allowed to FORCE their wives to have intercourse without their consent (what we in Australia view as RAPE).

Not allowed in Islam

Women's testimony is not equal in court.

Yes, in political and financial issues.
Women are not allowed to be presidents in Islam as well.

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Sorry but you are mistaken
There is no restriction in Islam about work, education or speech.

I beg to differ. I happen to know for a fact that in Islam, women are resricted when it comes to employment. A husband can stop his wife from working if he feels it could cause her to neglect her role as a wife and/or mother, or even if they are financially stable and he decides they don't need her to work. I also know he can restrict her to jobs where she can only work from home. So don't give me that shit, I know a lot about Islam. The fact that very few Muslims (in my country at least) actually impose these restrictions only goes to show how stupid they [the restrictions] actually are.

Islam itself doesn't restrict women from work
However men are the manager of the house (in case of marriage)
He can restrict her from something, but if she totally disagree she can ask divorce.

Marriage in Islam is like to be employed by a company where man is the boss, if you don't like it you two options
either to divorce
or
to set conditions (before marriage) that you are allowed to work or educate or whatever.
then man is to agree on the condition and complete the marriage or not.

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[quote='paulpablo' pid='460806' dateline='1370876235']

It gives husbands the right to beat their wives if they fear rebellion from their wives.

Yes, so we put 1 point for Men

Men 1
Women 0

I think being able to admonish someone then beat, scourge, strike someone, whenever you fear rebellion from them is a bit more than a 1-0 advantage.
[/quote
Beating wives is much less between Muslims than others
Islam restrict beating a wife to something like spanking to real beatings.

[Esquilax]

Many women (even in the western world) are discussing Motherhood vs. career; have you ever hear about men discussing the same????
It is because God created women more suitable to raise young children and care about home

Uh, no: it's because religion in general likes to help culture to the baseless conclusion that women are obligated to be mothers while men are more distant as fathers. The motherhood vs career debate is not one that needs to be had in a properly equal partnership- when I have kids I'll happily have the fatherhood vs career debate and choose the former if wifey wants to work- it's just that we live in a society that expects women to have that discussion but not men.

Nothing godly about it.

[Savannahw]

You may agree or not, but there are many facts supporting that women and men should be treated differently
(These are not proofs but very strong supporting evidences)

Many women (even in the western world) are discussing Motherhood vs. career; have you ever hear about men discussing the same????
It is because God created women more suitable to raise young children and care about home
The Islamic system is consistent with this view by obligating men to support women; it will be unfair to make women work and the same time care about children, or on the other side to make men and women equal in staying at home with children

Women are created physically less strong than men, men are usually more suitable for hard work outside home.
do you think that the Olympics should not separate women and men in different competitions?

I disagree that men and woman should be treated differently. However I love your claim of facts and then not giving any facts.

I also find it odd you haven't heard of men being stay at home dads. My husband and I have had this conversation many times. There is no reason a man can't be a stay at home dad. This should be a personal choice in a relationship.

Please do not get off topic. Bringing in physical strength is irrelevant.

[Silver]

Women's rights in Islam and Allah have something in common: neither exists.

[Muslim Scholar]

I disagree that men and woman should be treated differently. However I love your claim of facts and then not giving any facts.

But I gave you facts and statistics that women and men are different physically and psychologically!

I also find it odd you haven't heard of men being stay at home dads. My husband and I have had this conversation many times. There is no reason a man can't be a stay at home dad. This should be a personal choice in a relationship.

Of course I heard about it, but it is not the norm
Anyway even in Islam, it is possible
Marriage in Islam is just a contract and terms and conditions can apply, the default is that women stay at home and raise children, but if a women wants to change that she needs to put that in the marriage contract from beginning.

Please do not get off topic. Bringing in physical strength is irrelevant.

How it is irrelevant
How women will deal with heavy duty works if split jobs between men and women?

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Uh, no: it's because religion in general likes to help culture to the baseless conclusion that women are obligated to be mothers while men are more distant as fathers. The motherhood vs career debate is not one that needs to be had in a properly equal partnership- when I have kids I'll happily have the fatherhood vs career debate and choose the former if wifey wants to work- it's just that we live in a society that expects women to have that discussion but not men.

I think you need to take hormones, so you can breast feed them as well.

[Brian37]

Ok here we go again, YES YES YES, Islam in it's over all collective climate is still living in a oppressive past. But to claim sexism and oppression of women cant be found elsewhere in some form is disturbing to me to ignore. LDS and Mormons and Amish and some Hindu sects and Sikh sects still maintain gender roles and child brides are not exclusive as a concept to Islam. Christianity prior was just as sexist and oppressive to women, and even today we have a Republican party who uses Christianity to erode the reproductive control women have.

Go after Islam, but in 3rd world countries that are not Muslim have just as much ignorance and sexism to women. The issue of female oppression is a human issue over all. Religions will come and go and change over time, but girls and women will still be girls and women.

And to serve as an example Ayaan Hersi Ali who escaped Islam would probably agree with me. If she is willing to condemn ALL child mutilation of genitals in ALL religions, boy or girl, then that should tell you religion itself is the issue, not the particular religion. Jews use religion to excuse torturing baby boys. Christians in Africa also practice genital mutilation in some SOME SOME sects. And rape in war is conducted by uneducated societies regardless of religion.

Islam is merely currently lacking a secular leash on it so it gets the most attention, but our behavior as humans when combined with ignorance has always had the potential to lead to cruelty. WHEN rightfully going after Islam, ultimately you are still talking about human evolution that leads to the ignorance that leads them to the oppression of women, just like other cultures to some degree do, and other cultures in the past have.

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The only way to topple female oppression in Islam is to tell the women in that culture that they are not property and do not have to put up with being treated like property. If you don't want to walk behind a man, you don't have to. If you want to drive, you can. If you want an education you can. If you want to leave Islam you can. If you want to have a job, you can. If you don't want to wear a tent, you don't have to. To Arab women worldwide and to women still in Islam, YOU ARE NOT PROPERTY of anyone. Your brain is yours, not theirs.

But as I say that to Arab women, that also goes for women in any culture. Female or male, your brain is yours no mater what. No one has the right to tell you what you should be, what you need to believe. Educate yourself and be yourself.

[Savannahw]

Where are these facts? Please post them again. I don't see them.
The idea of marriage being a contract makes me squirm. She would have to specify from the beginning? What about ten years later when she changes her mind? That is ridiculous.
Who said that a woman has to do a job that requires more physical strength than she has? I hope that people have enough common sense to stay in fields that work to their strengths. However I know quite a few women who do construction work. They love it. Its a choice. Personal choices should not be insulted.
How is Esquilax's lack of mammary glads a bad thing? Why would you need to insult that? Maybe his wife will breast pump, maybe they will use formula? That is their choice.
I always find it mind boggling when fundamentalist act like jerky children. That is a great way to show people you have found the right path.

[Psykhronic]

I don't even want to know how Muslim Scholar would handle other gendered/transgendered people in his idealistic world. Hmm, actually yeah - that could make for a good chuckle or twenty.

[Brian37]

No holy book demonstrates any lick of biological evolution of men or women. They are arbitrary bullshit gender roles. Did it ever occur to theists that it is simply important for a family to work, not who does what?

On average because of testosterone men ON AVERAGE tend to be bigger and stronger physically, but women also tend to mate with someone larger. But that is science not fucking superstition.

Women still have the brain power and are as capable of the same work men are. And there is nothing wrong with a woman being the bread winner and the man staying at home. There is also no evidence that gay marriage will fuck up a kid otherwise why do straight parents end up with gay kids?

And there is also nothing wrong with a man or woman choosing not to get married or get married and not have kids. Life in reality is not a fucking script nor does what suit one person make it good for everyone else. AND I have known plenty of women who could physically kick my ass.

Religion takes reality and ignores it. The fact is real human biology is diverse so it always displays a range which is why it is not good to ignore it through the prism of childish goat herder myths written in a scientifically ignorant past.

No holy book that depicts stories of sexism or infanticide or genocide has any value in reality. They are simply reflections of ignorant human insecurity.

Even at work my co-workers find it strange that I don't want a kid. How the hell would it be good for me mentally or financially. and more importantly to the kid, if I had one I didn't want or could not afford. Religion sells you utopia bullshit rather than raise kids to think for themselves and prepare for life so they do what they want and not what society tells them, that is independence.

Life is a range not a script and religion ignores this and projects it's own narcissism on others.

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And as an aside to people who do have babies, especially when you have the baby with you, I REALLY DON'T CARE about baby pictures. I am not impressed with your ability to fuck, it happens millions of times a year. Yes your kid is special to you, I get that. But in our species history no, none of us are special, so please spare me your baby pictures.

[Ryantology]

You in your own life don't apply equality!

If you are an employee; do you get the same salary as the CEO?
If you are an owner do you give all people the same salary?
NO, because they have different qualifications

Those are not biological qualifications. Those are educational and skill-based qualifications. The difference is that, unlike a corporate employer...

It is the same in Islam, women have different qualifications than men, sometimes more sometimes less, that is why they are different.

...Islam arbitrarily assigns women and men different qualifications, and uses its own arbitrary system to justify placing one above the other. Islam bases its qualifications on whether one has a pussy or a cock, rather than anything actually useful in determining who is best-suited to do what.