Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism

[Minimalist]

I imagine we'll get the "context" excuse.

[Whateverist]

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For those who do not believe in miracles, I proppse the following for discussion:
from Josh McDowell's book New Evidence that Demands a Verdict, p. 359-360
J.W.N. Sullivan says, "that since the publication of Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity and Planck's endeavors with "black-body radiation," scientists are faced with "the vicissitudes of so-called natural law in an uncharted and unobstructed universe."
James Moore says that "today scientists will admit that no one knows enough about 'natural law' to say that any event is necessarily a violation of it. They agree that an individual's non-statistical sample of time and space is hardly sufficient ground on which to base immutable generalizations concerning the nature of the entire universe. Today, what we commonly term 'natural law' is in fact only our inductive and statistical descriptions of natural phenomena."

John Montgomery denotes that he anti-supernatural position is both "philosophically and scientifically irresponsible." First of all, philosophically: "because no one below the status of god could know the universe so well as to eliminate miracles a priori." Secondly, scientifically: "because in th age of Einsteinian physics (so different from the world of Newtonian absolutes in which Hume formulated his classic anti-miraculous argument) the universe has opened up to all possibilities, 'any attempt to state a "universal law of causation" must prove futile and only careful consideration of the empirical testimony for a miraculous event can determine whether in fact it has or has not occurred."

"But can the modern man accept a "miracle" such as the resurrection? The answer is a surprising one: The resurrection has to be accepted by us just because we are modern men, men living in the Einstein relativistic age. For us, unlike the Newtonian epoch, the universe is not longer a tight safe predictable playing field in which we know all the rules. Since Einstein no modern has had the right to rule out the possibility of events because of prior knowledge of "natural." The only way we can know whether an event can occur is to see whether in fact it has occurred. The problem of "miracles", then. must be solved in the realm of historical investigation, not in the realm of philosophical speculation."

Vincent Taylor warns against too great a dogmatism with regard to the miraculous: "It is far too late today to dismiss the question by saying that "miracles are impossible":; that stage of the discussion is definitely past. Science takes a much humbler and truer view of natural law that was characteristic of former times; we now know that eh "laws of Nature" are convenient summaries of existing knowledge. Nature is not a "closed system," and miracles are not "intrusions" in to an "established order." In the last fifty years we have been staggered too often by discoveries which at one time were pronounced impossible. ... This change of thought does not, of course, accredit the miraculous; but it does mean that, given the right conditions, miracles are not impossible; no scientific or philosophic dogma stand in the way.

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[Brakeman]

If something happens only in the "spiritual" World, it cannot be seen, heard, or known in the physical world.
If something from the "spiritual" wold interacts with the physical world, science can discover the disturbance or the effect on the physical world from this. Thus theoretically science should always be able discover the presence of "miracles."

[Esquilax]

If something happens only in the "spiritual" World, it cannot be seen, heard, or known in the physical world.
If something from the "spiritual" wold interacts with the physical world, science can discover the disturbance or the effect on the physical world from this. Thus theoretically science should always be able discover the presence of "miracles."

Playing defense for a moment, the typical theistic response to this claim is that the being causing the miracle simply caused nature to behave in such a way that its will is done, so the effect, while actually miraculous, seems natural. To which the reply should be that anybody claiming that a seemingly natural occurrence has a supernatural cause while also admitting that this cause cannot be demonstrated, has no basis at all for saying so, and is acting irrationally.

Hopefully, my saying this will cut off any theists hoping to use it here, so we can all save time.

[Cyberman]

I believe in God's [plan]: Beit 4 Jesuits surviving an Atom bomb, or millions dying in a tsunami. Nothing matters when you trust in God.

And I know for a fact that you don't believe this, at least to the degree you claim. I'll let Hugh Laurie here illustrate.

"You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways."

Thanks, Hugh! Say hi to Stephen Fry for me, ok?

"No problem, glad to be here. See you later!"

What a nice chap!

Anyway, regardless of whether you believe what you wrote or not, it has to be one of the sickest things I've read in a long time - and I read some pretty sick things, let me tell you. Take for instance the 9/11 attacks. Were you as appalled as the rest of us by the sheer atrocity of what happened and what led up to it, not to mention its aftermath, or did you celebrate yet another manifestation of God's plan?

This is not an assault, though you will perceive it as such; I genuinely want to know.

[ITChick]

I would like to share a story about a miracle that I experienced today.

I was standing outside work complaining that I forgot to charge my phone last night and that it was almost dead. As I walked through reception the reception lady stopped me and told me that I had a parcel. The parcel contained a phone charger!

True story.

Now I'm aware that some of you might be sceptical about this story. You might think that I made it up. But I ask you this: how am I posting this if it's not true?

Others might think that I only received the charger because I ordered it earlier this week. You would be correct in thinking that is why I receive it, but I ask you this: Why did I receive it exactly when I needed it the most?

As I'm a pastafarian this is proof to me that the Flying Spaghetti Monster does indeed exist. All praise His Noodliness!!!!

(Yes, that really is how Christians sound to me when they talk about miracles. I didn't even believe it when I was a Christian)

Edit: And wtf is up with the formatting? I call miracle.

[Bad Writer]

I believe you, ITChick.

[Chas]

I would like to share a story about a miracle that I experienced today.

I was standing outside work complaining that I forgot to charge my phone last night and that it was almost dead. As I walked through reception the reception lady stopped me and told me that I had a parcel. The parcel contained a phone charger!

True story.

Now I'm aware that some of you might be sceptical about this story. You might think that I made it up. But I ask you this: how am I posting this if it's not true?

Others might think that I only received the charger because I ordered it earlier this week. You would be correct in thinking that is why I receive it, but I ask you this: Why did I receive it exactly when I needed it the most?

As I'm a pastafarian this is proof to me that the Flying Spaghetti Monster does indeed exist. All praise His Noodliness!!!!

(Yes, that really is how Christians sound to me when they talk about miracles. I didn't even believe it when I was a Christian)

Edit: And wtf is up with the formatting? I call miracle.

Of course it's a miracle. As an ordained minister in The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (pbup), I see them all the time.

[Tonus]

Where do ass-raped altar boys fit into this plan or your god's?

Pfft! Typical skeptic, questioning the miraculous!

[Bad Writer]

*Quickly Googles A. Charles Beddoe*

Nope, not a sex offender. Whew.