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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 15, 2013 at 1:54 am
(June 15, 2013 at 1:29 am)ronedee Wrote: (June 14, 2013 at 5:55 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: Insecurity?
This.
I'll bet the number of believers that have been convinced by any of the philosophic arguments (T.A.G., cosmological, ontological, etc) for the existence of a god is extremely low. No... this wasn't part of our Sunday school lessons.
This was in some ways: Quinque viae
When the fuck did Catholics decide to torment their young with Sunday school? I sure as hell remember CCD every Wednesday between first communion and confirmation, but have no recollection of Sunday school.
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 15, 2013 at 1:55 am
(June 14, 2013 at 11:00 pm)Godschild Wrote: (June 14, 2013 at 4:49 pm)Zarith Wrote: Common arguments for the existence of God (such as the ontological argument, the teleological argument, first cause, cosmology, etc), only get you as far as an abstract notion of some sort of god -- the kind that philosophers talk about (if you accept the arguments, that is).
If you believe that the God of the Bible really exists and has the properties ascribed to him by this book, then other means are required to justify belief in this specific God. Typically this comes down to either scriptural authority, or divine revelation, or some combination of the two (for example, belief in the truth of the message of the biblical prophets is belief in both of these things). Am I omitting anything here? Note that I am including 'personal experience with God' under the umbrella of revelation, as God revealing himself to you.
But if you are willing to accept revelation / scripture as vehicles for determining truth from falsehood, then what is the point in attempting to construct a logical argument for the existence of God in the abstract? You already have what you consider proof of his existence, and a logical argument won't prove that your particular God exists. If you are trying to convince someone, they will still have to accept scriptural authority or divine revelation, will they not?
If belief in revelation / scripture is both necessary and sufficient, and logic alone is insufficient -- why bother?
Who's trying to prove God exist, I'm not and I do not believe I've seen any Christian here try it, most of us believe that it is God's work to prove He is real. God asks us to be a witness for Him and then He will draw people to Himself and let them decide to believe or not. Even the scriptures do not try to prove God's existence.
What exactly is your "witness(ing)" behavior but attempts to convince others that the divine revelation you have (allegedly) experienced is real, and by fiat, that your god is real? It appears that you are, in fact, trying to prove that your god is real, but simply don't realize that that is what you are doing.
'The difference between a Miracle and a Fact is exactly the difference between a mermaid and seal. It could not be expressed better.'
-- Samuel "Mark Twain" Clemens
"I think that in the discussion of natural problems we ought to begin not with the scriptures, but with experiments, demonstrations, and observations".
- Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
"In short, Meyer has shown that his first disastrous book was not a fluke: he is capable of going into any field in which he has no training or research experience and botching it just as badly as he did molecular biology. As I've written before, if you are a complete amateur and don't understand a subject, don't demonstrate the Dunning-Kruger effect by writing a book about it and proving your ignorance to everyone else! "
- Dr. Donald Prothero
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 15, 2013 at 1:58 am
Firstly, can I say that I find the god of the bible to be a logical god, and that the concept stands up to scrutiny. Also, some philosophical arguments address the nature and attributes of the Christian God.
I completely agree that no external (as you've defined it) proof is necessary at all. There cannot be independently verifiable proof. No philosophical argument can ever establish one way or the other. At best all they do is leave open the possibility. So good post zenith.
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 15, 2013 at 2:14 am
(June 15, 2013 at 1:58 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Firstly, can I say that I find the god of the bible to be a logical god, and that the concept stands up to scrutiny. Also, some philosophical arguments address the nature and attributes of the Christian God.
I completely agree that no external (as you've defined it) proof is necessary at all. There cannot be independently verifiable proof. No philosophical argument can ever establish one way or the other. At best all they do is leave open the possibility. So good post zenith.
What kind of logic was the god of the bible using when he commanded the Israelites to rape and murder the women and children of their enemies?
'The difference between a Miracle and a Fact is exactly the difference between a mermaid and seal. It could not be expressed better.'
-- Samuel "Mark Twain" Clemens
"I think that in the discussion of natural problems we ought to begin not with the scriptures, but with experiments, demonstrations, and observations".
- Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
"In short, Meyer has shown that his first disastrous book was not a fluke: he is capable of going into any field in which he has no training or research experience and botching it just as badly as he did molecular biology. As I've written before, if you are a complete amateur and don't understand a subject, don't demonstrate the Dunning-Kruger effect by writing a book about it and proving your ignorance to everyone else! "
- Dr. Donald Prothero
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 15, 2013 at 2:20 am
The logic of justice.
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 15, 2013 at 2:28 am
(June 14, 2013 at 11:00 pm)Godschild Wrote: Who's trying to prove God exist, I'm not and I do not believe I've seen any Christian here try it, most of us believe that it is God's work to prove He is real. God asks us to be a witness for Him and then He will draw people to Himself and let them decide to believe or not. Even the scriptures do not try to prove God's existence.
Well, to quote your beloved bible...
1st Peter 3:15 Wrote:But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.
So... hey.
Fr0d0 Wrote:Firstly, can I say that I find the god of the bible to be a logical god, and that the concept stands up to scrutiny. Also, some philosophical arguments address the nature and attributes of the Christian God.
I notice you've been saying this a lot lately, but that whenever you do you fail to detail exactly what it is about your god that's logical and consistent with a realistic worldview. Could you? It's kind of hard to consider it when it's just a bare assertion.
CapnAwesome Wrote:That's why faith is put up as such a virtue. If you accept faith as a virtue why bother with the rest?
I don't actually think many christians do believe faith is a virtue, hence all these supposed logical proofs for the existence of their god, but even more tellingly, hence the continued use of the "it takes more faith to be an atheist!" and "you have faith in science!" arguments. Those things smack as attempts to bring the atheist down to the level of the theist, which implies that the theist making them thinks faith is something one is reduced to, rather than being a justification on its own.
Either that, or it's a glaring hypocrisy, where their faith is fine and justified, but all other faiths are negative.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 15, 2013 at 2:40 am
(June 15, 2013 at 1:55 am)orogenicman Wrote: What exactly is your "witness(ing)" behavior but attempts to convince others that the divine revelation you have (allegedly) experienced is real, and by fiat, that your god is real? It appears that you are, in fact, trying to prove that your god is real, but simply don't realize that that is what you are doing.
When you are in LOVE, do you try to prove your GIRL exists? No. We talk about the girl of course...but the FEELINGS we have inside about that relationship are what makes us happy.
Our spiritual FAITH in GOD is what we are talking about. The path to Him, and the JOY it brings as a result.
No need to prove anything but Faith.
Quis ut Deus?
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 15, 2013 at 2:42 am
(June 15, 2013 at 2:20 am)fr0d0 Wrote: The logic of justice.
In what alternate reality is rape and murder of women and children considered to be justice?
'The difference between a Miracle and a Fact is exactly the difference between a mermaid and seal. It could not be expressed better.'
-- Samuel "Mark Twain" Clemens
"I think that in the discussion of natural problems we ought to begin not with the scriptures, but with experiments, demonstrations, and observations".
- Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
"In short, Meyer has shown that his first disastrous book was not a fluke: he is capable of going into any field in which he has no training or research experience and botching it just as badly as he did molecular biology. As I've written before, if you are a complete amateur and don't understand a subject, don't demonstrate the Dunning-Kruger effect by writing a book about it and proving your ignorance to everyone else! "
- Dr. Donald Prothero
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 15, 2013 at 2:43 am
(June 14, 2013 at 11:00 pm)Godschild Wrote: (June 14, 2013 at 4:49 pm)Zarith Wrote: Common arguments for the existence of God (such as the ontological argument, the teleological argument, first cause, cosmology, etc), only get you as far as an abstract notion of some sort of god -- the kind that philosophers talk about (if you accept the arguments, that is).
If you believe that the God of the Bible really exists and has the properties ascribed to him by this book, then other means are required to justify belief in this specific God. Typically this comes down to either scriptural authority, or divine revelation, or some combination of the two (for example, belief in the truth of the message of the biblical prophets is belief in both of these things). Am I omitting anything here? Note that I am including 'personal experience with God' under the umbrella of revelation, as God revealing himself to you.
But if you are willing to accept revelation / scripture as vehicles for determining truth from falsehood, then what is the point in attempting to construct a logical argument for the existence of God in the abstract? You already have what you consider proof of his existence, and a logical argument won't prove that your particular God exists. If you are trying to convince someone, they will still have to accept scriptural authority or divine revelation, will they not?
If belief in revelation / scripture is both necessary and sufficient, and logic alone is insufficient -- why bother?
Who's trying to prove God exist, I'm not and I do not believe I've seen any Christian here try it, most of us believe that it is God's work to prove He is real. God asks us to be a witness for Him and then He will draw people to Himself and let them decide to believe or not. Even the scriptures do not try to prove God's existence. Well, the existence and continued usage of these arguments alone is evidence that people are in fact trying to prove God exists.
Am I to understand that you have never and will never use any of these? You have never made a post here using the argument from design, or the argument from morality, or any of the big ones?
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 15, 2013 at 2:46 am
(June 15, 2013 at 2:40 am)ronedee Wrote: (June 15, 2013 at 1:55 am)orogenicman Wrote: What exactly is your "witness(ing)" behavior but attempts to convince others that the divine revelation you have (allegedly) experienced is real, and by fiat, that your god is real? It appears that you are, in fact, trying to prove that your god is real, but simply don't realize that that is what you are doing.
When you are in LOVE, do you try to prove your GIRL exists? No. We talk about the girl of course...but the FEELINGS we have inside about that relationship are what makes us happy.
Our spiritual FAITH in GOD is what we are talking about. The path to Him, and the JOY it brings as a result.
No need to prove anything but Faith.
But then, we CAN prove that the girl exists. Not so much with respect to your god, I'm afraid.
'The difference between a Miracle and a Fact is exactly the difference between a mermaid and seal. It could not be expressed better.'
-- Samuel "Mark Twain" Clemens
"I think that in the discussion of natural problems we ought to begin not with the scriptures, but with experiments, demonstrations, and observations".
- Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
"In short, Meyer has shown that his first disastrous book was not a fluke: he is capable of going into any field in which he has no training or research experience and botching it just as badly as he did molecular biology. As I've written before, if you are a complete amateur and don't understand a subject, don't demonstrate the Dunning-Kruger effect by writing a book about it and proving your ignorance to everyone else! "
- Dr. Donald Prothero
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