Religious Institutions Engrained into Society

[Meatball]

Labour Laws
In Manitoba at least, there are very strict labour laws about working on Sundays. Obviously this has it's roots in religion, and it actually a big inconvenience. Since most places have laws requiring companies to give people time off for religious reasons, why must they conform to restrictive hours like Noon - 6pm on Sundays also? If there are people who will work the hours, why can't a business be open?

Christmas
I've never been big on Christmas. Since I was in my teens it became obvious to me that the nativity story is bullshit, that christmas is a marketing gimmick, and that all it really meant to me was turkey and presents.

In Canada, I've found, Christmas is universal. Nearly everyone celebrates it. My family is all about it so I'm sorta obligated to take part, but if it were up to me I'd just let be another day off.

Marriage
This is a big one for me. I see it as a useless religious title that has no place in government. I we have seperation of church and state, then why do we have marriage written so deeply into our laws? Why does the government care? I should be able to call two men united marriage. I should be able to call my toilet "marriage" if I want. It's a stupid debate.

Can you think of any other things everyone deals with, seem secular, but are 100% religious?

[Edwardo Piet]

I think all 3 should be optional...I don't think any should be taught.

But the problem with the Santa one is how can you practice it without keeping it a secret?

I'd never have thought in my entire life that I'd struggle over whether kids should be taught about Father Christmas or not....

It makes a lot of kids happy but it also bullshits them and pisses a lot of kids off....obviously if adults believed it too it would be a lot worse....

But since kids are taught the truth when they're old enough....I'd say it's a moral question based on what's best for the kids happiness....

Personally I think there is actually a good lesson in Father Christmas...partly one that helped me when I was a kid: Because you eventually (as a kid) realize that the supernatural (or superstitious or whatever) idea of Santa is bullshit...that works as some kind of support that just maybe all other supernatural ideas (like god etc) are a load of bullshit too....

Because kids are eventually taught that santa - how can I put this nicely... - is a crock of shit.....that often contributes atleast somewhat to the idea that maybe they should question things more...maybe god isn't real....etc..

If most adults believed in Santa that message would lose all it's meaning....

But I dunno ultimately about the pros minus the cons of santa but atleast they grow out of it.

EDIT: I'm not against the marriage idea certainly...I'm fine with that....

But re-reading the part about labour...I'm not sure if that could ever be a good thing? is strict labour better than free labour? I don't know....

On other religious things that seem secular...hmmm...I'd say most of them are christian....

I'd say even baptism seems secular in some occasions...I sort of vaguely know that some agnostics or even atheists have their children baptized simply because of tradition....I was baptized... don't mean shit tho.

Just like marriage I'd say that some agnostics or atheists baptize their children (or atleast USED to) simply because of Catholic tradition (in this case) or whatever.

[Kyuuketsuki]

Saturday & Sundays seem to on the decline here (UK) which, although academically I see as a good thing, personally I don't ... I like Sundays and I hate having to go do things then! It's worth pointing out (somewhat cynically I suppose) that if it weren't for Sunday laws employers would feel much more free to get us to work on those days (at non-overtime rates no less) and I think my employer has enough of my life already.

Likewise, although I recognise Christmas as Christian, I do like it ... I love to have family and friends around, I like to give and get presents, I like the food, the drink, the general atmosphere. I rationalise it by celebrating either a fat [expletive deleted] in a red suit who managed to mysteriously not get stuck down our chimney (mainly because we've had bits of it removed) and also because Christmas is my wife's birthday (she thinks it's awfully nice of people to put out all those deco's just for her birthday)

Now marriage I agree ... I personally think all marriage ceremonies should be divorced from religion and that it should be necessary to arrange a state official to officiate over the legal component. That actually would work better IMO as it would mean everyone could get married how they want (by Elvis, Captain Kirk, their best friend or their dog) and it would be recognised in law as long as they had the state legal component so it would be better for everyone. Oh I'm sure Christians and other religious groups would scream blue murder because their marriage ceremony would no longer be recognised as special but many of them already think their rights are being violated because they can't discriminate against gays so why worry?

Kyu

[infidel666]

As an evil American pig, I've gone through a lot of views about these types of laws. For example, consider blue laws that restrict sale of alcohol on religious holidays, and marriage that is only available for het couples. But in a society of popular rule that has separation of church and state, there arises in inherent problem of how to refrain from either promoting or destroying religion while letting people promulgate and enact laws. It seems the line is mostly drawn such that a law can't be struck down merely on the basis that it is in accordance with a particular religious or secular view, but only if it actually has the affect of promoting or destroying religion. In other words, if you can strike down a law restricting sale of alcohol on religious holidays, then it follows you can strike down a law against murder on the basis that it accords with one of the ten commandments.

In the case of marriage, though, I think it discriminates against people on the basis of sex, which is prohibited except for "real differences." So, with marriage, the government can say there is a real difference in an opposite sex union in that one can presume that the couple has the potential to bear children, while a same sex couple cannot bear children. Of course, lesbian couples can certainly bear children by using a sperm bank, and gay couples can adopt and/or use a surrogate. So I don't think it is a legitimate distinction, especially today.

And even in the case of the blue laws restricting sale of alcohol on religious holidays, I think the murder law analogy is overly simplistic. In other words, I think it would be a more appropriate analogy to compare the blue laws to a law against murder only on religious holidays. In those cases, the laws discriminate in effect by forcing people who do not observe a religion to change their behavior to observe religious principles of a religion on holidays of that religion. So I do think those laws have the effect not only of promoting religion in general, but also of promoting a particular religion over another.

IANYL. TINLA.

[Meatball]

In other words, if you can strike down a law restricting sale of alcohol on religious holidays, then it follows you can strike down a law against murder on the basis that it accords with one of the ten commandments.

Not a valid argument. By that logic our entire moral system is based up religion.

I think laws should only be created to protect personal rights and freedoms, not to protest religious ideals. Murder infringes on someones right to live. Assault, theft and rape all infringe on personal rights. That's why they are wrong, not because the Bible says they are. That's why they should be illegal.

I think an employer should be able to offer jobs at any hours they please, as long as someone is willing to work it. The 8 hour work day doesn't have anything to do with religion, and it's logical. Over-time laws should still apply.

If a store wants to sell alcoholic beverages, why shouldn't they? As long as they make sure they are selling to someone of legal age, what's the problem?

Stuff like this really irks me.

[Eilonnwy]

I don't see Christmas as 100% religious. More like 50/50. There's a secular aspect with Santa Clause (that yes, is someone religious if you think Santa is St. Nick) but also just the idea of winter holidays, season of warmth and giving during the solstice. And then yes, you have the religious baby Jesus aspect.

Because Christmas actually hijacked a pagan ritual and has so many secular aspects, I actually like the holiday. There are certain things that make the season nice for me. I LOOOOVVVEE Christmas light displays because they can be so pretty. I love the smell of a real Christmas tree in a house.

The only aspect I don't like is I'm too poor to buy gifts for all my friends. T.T

[Spashie]

I LURVE Xmas. I like the feel, and I like giving prezzies to my friends too. Just seeing their face about to explode in happiness makes me want to bounce around the world.
I love making people happy. It gives you this rush. "I did a good thing today." Yeah, THAT rush. Also, it makes me happy that someone else is happy.
Marriage?
I'm a rather secular kid, so i dont intend on getting married in my life.
But when i fall in love and she wants to get married, sure, i'll go ahead.
Labour laws?
Theres a lot of shops closed on Sundays.
It pisses me off.
"HAI CANNAIY BAI COMIX FRUM THER NOOS AYJENT"
"SURRY ITS CLOES"
"NUUUUUUUUU"
Yeah. Like that.

[infidel666]

It is widely acknowledged that giving of prezzies comes from Paganism, particularly Saturnalia, celebrated in Ancient Rome from Dec 17-23. Saturnalia was replaced by Sol Invictus, in which the festival culminated on December 25, which is the first day following the Winter Solstice that the sun can be observed to rise at a point north of its southernmost position. Chistmas is thought to have been moved from January 7 to December 25 in order to supplant Sol Invictus. So the giving of prezzies still has a seemingly religious origin. But it is not a reverant tradition.

Saturnalia was the festival of Chronus/Saturn, father of the greek gods who ate his children but was killed by Zeus/Jupiter. At the festival, the statue of Saturn was unbound (tied with ropes the rest of the year) and the slaves and masters switched roles for the festival. So it is a bit like a festival for throwing off the chains of established religion and social order. Me likey.