Religion and pleasure

[Consilius]

What I see being described here is Christian ascetism, a Middle Age philosophy that suggested that the body was evil and needed torture and neglect to be purified.
Of course, I am not advocating for that. Pleasure is good, but, my apologies to Epicurus, it is not the ultimate good in life. Hispanic immigrants and African farmers aren't doing anything wrong by living hard lives.

I say that suffering is the way to glory. We shouldn't be afraid of it, neither should we guiltily embrace it. Suffering and pleasure are both indispensable parts of life, and we should welcome them equally when they come our way.

[kılıç_mehmet]

It all stems from this:

http://atheistforums.org/thread-20055-page-4.html

After some discussion, someone pointed out:

atheists are people who rather dwell on the simple pleasures of life. They are not bothered with anything else, and they disregard any other notions around them.

But, it is also true that

[to] other atheists, examining those "other notions" happen to be a part of those pleasures that we enjoy. Intellectual pleasure is still pleasure.

Now, after reading this, a question came into my mind: what is the point for religions in negating earthly pleasure?
I think one reason is that earthly pleasure means simple distraction from intellectual activities (like, say, going out with your girlfriend instead of studying). Another reason might be birth control (ironic, uh?), seeing how sex is the biggest taboo of our society and seeing how it is demonized by (especially abrahamic) religions.

Still, those reasons do not completely fulfill my original question. There must be something deeper beyond negation of physical pleasure, let's discuss this here together!

Hello, fellow Earthbound fan.
I recognize my own words in these, so I will reply to you first hand, with I have meant in my words.
I have said this in accordance with my observations here and in other "atheist forums" not to mention the people that I come across, and last but not least, my own parents, who are atheists.

I'm sure that many people will disagree, but I think the reason that atheists seek simple pleasures(I really don't know why you've brought up the subject of intellectual pursuits, some do it, some don't) is to fill an empty hole, the size of an ocean, with drops of water. Not to say all atheists are as these, some have adopted a greater purpose in accordance to what they do, some, who are scientists, have given themselves over to a greater purpose, and some, who might be politicians of any ideology, have given themselves over to the notion of furthering their ideology's political goals.
However, most atheists are just simply folk as I am. And simple folk find it difficult to have a purpose for living, so they require notions like either religion, political advocacy, or simply working for the goals of a notion that is bigger than their person(country, neighborhood, and etc.).
But really, the atheists I've met in my life are highly individualistic, disregard any notions that has anything to do with the public(such as morality) and generally bent on enjoying life as much as they can before finally expiring, because they lack the notion of sacrificing a portion of their simple enjoyments in return for a greater joy.

My greater joy in life is political advocacy. I have sacrificed much of my own happiness to further this cause. And my greater joy in death is afterlife. I again, feel that I have to sacrifice a portion of my own happiness to further this cause.
However I still don't understand what kind of a greater joy an atheist finds in life. Just to give an example, the atheists I've met here, deny the notion of heritage, which is to claim and be proud of your ancestors and their accomplishments. They claim that a man only ought to be proud of one's own accomplishments. Although I'm fairly certain that no man here has founded a city, became an important official, nor reached the highest degrees in arts&sciences, nor has done anything other than being the average joe.
And as an average joe, that lacks a purpose, they have said that the greatest purpose ought to be to live for the sake of living. Since they lack any restraints that are outside of the law, they find it easy to indulge or encourage the indulgement of many of the simple, and sometimes "guilty" pleasures of life.

To answer your question, there is a point of sacrificing your earthly pleasures for the sake of a greater cause, that will give you a sense of belonging, a sense of being a part of a greater whole.
I see the human as a being that has within itself the whole the size of an ocean. Everything that we do in life adds water to it. While certain things are nothing more than drops, some are as buckets of water, and some amount to tons of water. I've chosen to fill it with larger amount of water than simply drops, so if I have to sacrifice drops in favor of greater amounts of water, so be it.
The reason I have chosen this path is that I know that my life will not just be a number in the great multitudes of people that have come and gone, I will be a part and support to a greater whole in my life on earth, and I will have a reward in the afterlife. So I try my best to live my life according to these, which means I have to sacrifice perhaps a portion of my earthly pleasures, and become a being that is led by ideals and creeds, rather than its base instincts.

[Esquilax]

My greater joy in life is political advocacy. I have sacrificed much of my own happiness to further this cause. And my greater joy in death is afterlife. I again, feel that I have to sacrifice a portion of my own happiness to further this cause.

I could go on and on about by fiat assertions based on nothing much, but I'm sure that'll occur to most people who read through your post anyway. Instead, I'll focus in; you're claim is that atheists- the sole thing separating us from the religious being god beliefs- are generally unable or unwilling to engage in these "greater joys" you list... and then proceed to mark yours as a wholly secular pursuit, and therefore not beyond the grasp of atheists in any way.

Is it truly your belief that religious conviction makes people more willing to deal in these (secular) causes? Is there any point in even asking, given that the rest of your post was nothing but bland, tasteless and judgmental assertions from top to bottom without any form of evidence?

Would it help if I told you that, from my perspective, there's no difference between the "little" joys and your "greater" ones? That they're all just things to delight in? That life is something to delight in precisely because one has choices like these, and that to sit on your high horse like a Judgey Jason doesn't make your choices more valid merely because you've attached a high minded label to them?

Hello, I'm an atheist. I'm also a writer, a composer, an activist for various causes, a husband, a robot enthusiast, and a pretty mean pianist back in the day. Maybe these are all little drops to you, but to me they're just as legitimate as any of the life choices you've made. I guarantee you that if you'd actually bothered to ask around, you wouldn't find the squirming hedonistic den of indulgence that you're imagining, but instead would find a vibrant group of individuals who've found plenty to like in their own lives, even if they don't measure up to the big torrential flood you're filling your hole with.

But I dunno, maybe that'd take time away from your important works.

However I still don't understand what kind of a greater joy an atheist finds in life. Just to give an example, the atheists I've met here, deny the notion of heritage, which is to claim and be proud of your ancestors and their accomplishments. They claim that a man only ought to be proud of one's own accomplishments.

Why rest on the laurels of those who've come before you? Acknowledging where you've come from is one thing, but how is that important beyond a sense of history? What's actually your point here?

Although I'm fairly certain that no man here has founded a city, became an important official, nor reached the highest degrees in arts&sciences, nor has done anything other than being the average joe.

Hey, I dunno, maybe you should have asked.

And as an average joe, that lacks a purpose, they have said that the greatest purpose ought to be to live for the sake of living.

I doubt anyone here would say that they lack purpose. I think we would all say that your presumption that any purpose you disapprove of is somehow lesser is terribly arrogant.

Since they lack any restraints that are outside of the law, they find it easy to indulge or encourage the indulgement of many of the simple, and sometimes "guilty" pleasures of life.

Oh, do I sense an "atheists gots no morals!" canard in the midst of this mass of self-congratulatory wank?

To answer your question, there is a point of sacrificing your earthly pleasures for the sake of a greater cause, that will give you a sense of belonging, a sense of being a part of a greater whole.

None of which, of course, being solely the purview of religion.

I see the human as a being that has within itself the whole the size of an ocean. Everything that we do in life adds water to it. While certain things are nothing more than drops, some are as buckets of water, and some amount to tons of water. I've chosen to fill it with larger amount of water than simply drops, so if I have to sacrifice drops in favor of greater amounts of water, so be it.

I'll have your medal sent right out.

The reason I have chosen this path is that I know that my life will not just be a number in the great multitudes of people that have come and gone, I will be a part and support to a greater whole in my life on earth, and I will have a reward in the afterlife. So I try my best to live my life according to these, which means I have to sacrifice perhaps a portion of my earthly pleasures, and become a being that is led by ideals and creeds, rather than its base instincts.

Christ, maybe a statue somewhere, your holiness?

[Walking Void]

So I try my best to live my life according to these, which means I have to sacrifice perhaps a portion of my earthly pleasures, and become a being that is led by ideals and creeds, rather than its base instincts.

Mehmet, what kind of creeds or ideals would these be? As in, what do they state?

[genkaus]

---

Hello, fellow Earthbound fan.
I recognize my own words in these, so I will reply to you first hand, with I have meant in my words.
I have said this in accordance with my observations here and in other "atheist forums" not to mention the people that I come across, and last but not least, my own parents, who are atheists.

I'm sure that many people will disagree, but I think the reason that atheists seek simple pleasures(I really don't know why you've brought up the subject of intellectual pursuits, some do it, some don't) is to fill an empty hole, the size of an ocean, with drops of water. Not to say all atheists are as these, some have adopted a greater purpose in accordance to what they do, some, who are scientists, have given themselves over to a greater purpose, and some, who might be politicians of any ideology, have given themselves over to the notion of furthering their ideology's political goals.
However, most atheists are just simply folk as I am. And simple folk find it difficult to have a purpose for living, so they require notions like either religion, political advocacy, or simply working for the goals of a notion that is bigger than their person(country, neighborhood, and etc.).
But really, the atheists I've met in my life are highly individualistic, disregard any notions that has anything to do with the public(such as morality) and generally bent on enjoying life as much as they can before finally expiring, because they lack the notion of sacrificing a portion of their simple enjoyments in return for a greater joy.

My greater joy in life is political advocacy. I have sacrificed much of my own happiness to further this cause. And my greater joy in death is afterlife. I again, feel that I have to sacrifice a portion of my own happiness to further this cause.
However I still don't understand what kind of a greater joy an atheist finds in life. Just to give an example, the atheists I've met here, deny the notion of heritage, which is to claim and be proud of your ancestors and their accomplishments. They claim that a man only ought to be proud of one's own accomplishments. Although I'm fairly certain that no man here has founded a city, became an important official, nor reached the highest degrees in arts&sciences, nor has done anything other than being the average joe.
And as an average joe, that lacks a purpose, they have said that the greatest purpose ought to be to live for the sake of living. Since they lack any restraints that are outside of the law, they find it easy to indulge or encourage the indulgement of many of the simple, and sometimes "guilty" pleasures of life.

To answer your question, there is a point of sacrificing your earthly pleasures for the sake of a greater cause, that will give you a sense of belonging, a sense of being a part of a greater whole.
I see the human as a being that has within itself the whole the size of an ocean. Everything that we do in life adds water to it. While certain things are nothing more than drops, some are as buckets of water, and some amount to tons of water. I've chosen to fill it with larger amount of water than simply drops, so if I have to sacrifice drops in favor of greater amounts of water, so be it.
The reason I have chosen this path is that I know that my life will not just be a number in the great multitudes of people that have come and gone, I will be a part and support to a greater whole in my life on earth, and I will have a reward in the afterlife. So I try my best to live my life according to these, which means I have to sacrifice perhaps a portion of my earthly pleasures, and become a being that is led by ideals and creeds, rather than its base instincts.

---

You know, I see a lot of big words masquerading as wisdom, and yet, on closer inspection, I find them to be more worthless that religious dogma.

In fact, the tune you are singing isn't original at all. It hits all the common notes of "sacrificing the earthly pleasure", "greater joy", "something bigger than oneself", "self-sacrifice", "higher cause" etc. The only thing that changes is which altar you'd have us sacrifice ourselves on - the altar of god or the altar of society. Well, I can achieve the so-called "greater joy" without sacrificing my earthly pleasures.

Here's how the thing called happiness works. You can be happy in any one or more of the following ways:
1. Pleasure
2. Engagement
3. Relationships
4. Meaning
5. Accomplishments.

Obviously, the person who hits the high notes on all five is going to be the happiest. And here's where you and the other theists go horribly wrong. You think that without god or society giving it to us, our life won't have a meaning. That only meaning to be found in life is by "sacrificing oneself in service of god or society". That only accomplishments that count are those made while serving this so-called greater good. And since atheists and individualists don't do that, all they have left to make them happy are the baser, earthly pleasures.

And that's bullshit. Plain and simple. Yes, I am hellbent on enjoying my life to the fullest and I happen to know that without a meaningful purpose to accomplish, I won't be able to enjoy life to fullest. That doesn't mean that that purpose has to come from outside myself. In fact, I have chosen my purpose with careful consideration - so as to minimize letting go of other forms of happiness. And you know what I've found - an average Joe who defines and lives for his own purpose, however mundane it may be - is much happier than someone who's had their purpose dictated to them.

And speaking of average Joes, if your heritage is the source of your pride, then your life must have been devoid of any accomplishments. Frankly, the pride I take in my capacity to cook good food is much greater than any pride I could hold for my ancestors who may have built a city.

[Faith No More]

I would write an inciteful, well-thought post about all the ways that Mehmet is wrong, but I'm too busy drunkenly masturbating while stuffing my face with ice cream.

[kılıç_mehmet]

I could go on and on about by fiat assertions based on nothing much, but I'm sure that'll occur to most people who read through your post anyway. Instead, I'll focus in; you're claim is that atheists- the sole thing separating us from the religious being god beliefs- are generally unable or unwilling to engage in these "greater joys" you list... and then proceed to mark yours as a wholly secular pursuit, and therefore not beyond the grasp of atheists in any way.

Well, even if you do, I'm not sure you'll persist when faced with a choice of sacrificing your own "simple pleasures" and whatever greater purpose you've taken on. It is the impression I've gotten from the lot of the atheists I know.
And I stress the term "atheists" because the term seems to be your primary means ot self-identification before anything else, so I will continue to use this term until the discussion sees its final words.

Is it truly your belief that religious conviction makes people more willing to deal in these (secular) causes?

The thing is, due to the fact that you believe that upon death, it's all over for you, you don't really see much of a point in participating in things that exceed your lifetime.
If there is a certain reason for you to do so, tell me.

I know this from my own parents. They'd love to think they care about politics and the way the country is going, but when I decide that I wish to be more active in political life, in pursuit of a definite ideal, they come to tell me that I ought to forget about these things and live my life.

Is there any point in even asking, given that the rest of your post was nothing but bland, tasteless and judgmental assertions from top to bottom without any form of evidence?

What form of evidence do you really expect from me? I'm telling you about the impression I've gotten from the atheists that I've known in my lifetime, including the people here.

Would it help if I told you that, from my perspective, there's no difference between the "little" joys and your "greater" ones? That they're all just things to delight in? That life is something to delight in precisely because one has choices like these, and that to sit on your high horse like a Judgey Jason doesn't make your choices more valid merely because you've attached a high minded label to them?

No, it wouldn't, because there is a difference, else I'd obviously not choose the greater joys over the smaller ones, while persevering through periods of sadness and pain, which means, patience.
However, atheists generally do not show this patience too much, since they think that their time is limited, they rush things, they are impatient. This is why they lose faith in things very easily.

Hello, I'm an atheist. I'm also a writer, a composer, an activist for various causes, a husband, a robot enthusiast, and a pretty mean pianist back in the day.

I'm not an atheist, I'm a university student that has faced expulsion from school for my views, threats of violence from fellow students and monetary problems just to print a magazine. If I were as you, bent on enjoying myself, I'd certainly quit. I'd go through university just like the other guys, and perhaps end up in America or Europe some day.
What you do obviously gives you a lot of pleasure. What I do gives me hardship. But the fact that I do it, and that I do it for a greater cause is what gives me strength to do it. And if I had lived my life a second time, I'd not change the path I've taken.

Maybe these are all little drops to you, but to me they're just as legitimate as any of the life choices you've made. I

Legitimate, yes they are. But I've never really judged you for that.
I simply have stated why I think that atheists as I think they are.

I guarantee you that if you'd actually bothered to ask around, you wouldn't find the squirming hedonistic den of indulgence that you're imagining

I never expected such a thing. But while I see hedonism as morally wrong, you simply don't.

, but instead would find a vibrant group of individuals who've found plenty to like in their own lives, even if they don't measure up to the big torrential flood you're filling your hole with.

Well, I can find plenty of things to like in my own life too. And I do have certain things that I like to do. I like to draw, I like to discuss politics and actually have joined this site to get to know people around the globe a little better. These are my little joys. But ultimately, they are not really meaningful beyond the moment they're done in. And when you are dead and underground they'll be lost with you, at least, according to your belief.

Why rest on the laurels of those who've come before you? Acknowledging where you've come from is one thing, but how is that important beyond a sense of history? What's actually your point here?

It's quite important. Not just acknowledging, but also taking pride fuels to give this sense of pride you're experiencing from the deeds of your ancestors to the next generations. If people really did not care about what their ancestors had done, nor about the next generations, no one would bother recording history.

My point is this, since atheists always do not look beyond their lifetimes, they generally see no point in looking back in their history, or having a vision that drives them to do better things for the future.
The only way they contribute to the future is having a child, which is in itself a way for them to have a taste of a greater joy in life, though some still exchange it for greater sexual freedom and less responsibilities, again, with the same reasoning. I'm here for a limited amount of time, why really bother to spend my time on someone else, when I can spend it on myself.

Hey, I dunno, maybe you should have asked.

Well, no such person would waste time in an internet forum.

I doubt anyone here would say that they lack purpose. I think we would all say that your presumption that any purpose you disapprove of is somehow lesser is terribly arrogant.

Well, I've heard it from other people here numerous of times that people are not born with a purpose. So according to them, the default human is a man that has no purpose other than the purpose that he has by simply existing there.
Besides, my purpose is not bound to me alone. It's a "greater purpose" whom I follow, I did not create it, I did not elaborate on it, I only try to understand it, and live accoding to it.
Any purpose that I create for myself will ultimately end with me.
And the fact that you stressed above, that the past and future has no meaning other than being "history" is what drives you to accept a lesser purpose for your life, which is mostly to simply live for the sake of living.

Oh, do I sense an "atheists gots no morals!" canard in the midst of this mass of self-congratulatory wank?

Well, if you do, you probably have the morals general society has. So do I. I don't make up my own moral standpoint, I simply understand the moral standpoint of society, and follow it.
You on the other hand reject many of the moral standpoints in whatver society you're in, and generally associate this with freedom(which I attribute to your general self-righteous attitude that stems from all the above mentioned points), and create your own set of morals, on which sometimes, you can't even agree on.
In short, your morals are outlined by the laws in the countries you live in, and even in that case, you try to change these laws to suit your morals, instead of the morals of the general public.

None of which, of course, being solely the purview of religion.

Not just that, though.

Christ, maybe a statue somewhere, your holiness?

What? Is that too much for you to handle? Of course, you obviously can't comprehend the meaning of sacrifice, ideals, and living your life accoding to these ideals. You live your life according to yourself, which is, in my opinion, nothing.

[Neo-Scholastic]

My take on the issue is that we all pursue happiness. In doing so we make choices. Biblical / spiritual guidance is about making the right choices. Hoarding money for the sake of having more than others excludes you from the pleasure of investing it and seeing it put to productive use. The pleasure you get from whoring around excludes you from the pleasure of having a loving and faithful relationship.

Sinful choices are those stemming from a love of self that excludes others and an inordinate focus on sensuality. Sinful choices remove from consideration the dignity of self and others and the development of your own character. Pleasure in itself is not the problem. The problems come when our pursuit of pleasure is wrong-headed.

[genkaus]

My take on the issue is that we all pursue happiness. In doing so we make choices. Biblical / spiritual guidance is about making the right choices.

I agree that spiritual guidance is about making right choices, but disagree that bible or any other form of mysticism is a good spiritual guide.

Hoarding money for the sake of having more than others excludes you from the pleasure of investing it and seeing it put to productive use.

You do understand that "investing it and seeing it put to productive use" does not automatically mean charity, right?

The pleasure you get from whoring around excludes you from the pleasure of having a loving and faithful relationship.

I disagree. I can have both.

Sinful choices are those stemming from a love of self that excludes others and an inordinate focus on sensuality. Sinful choices remove from consideration the dignity of self and others and the development of your own character. Pleasure in itself is not the problem. The problems come when our pursuit of pleasure is wrong-headed.

Disagree once again. I believe that it is only through love of self that you can moral choices. It is only when you love yourself that you'd understand that your need for happiness goes beyond mere sensuality. It is upon loving oneself that one realizes that his dignity, development and achievement cannot and should not be compromised.

[kılıç_mehmet]

You know, I see a lot of big words masquerading as wisdom, and yet, on closer inspection, I find them to be more worthless that religious dogma.

In fact, the tune you are singing isn't original at all. It hits all the common notes of "sacrificing the earthly pleasure", "greater joy", "something bigger than oneself", "self-sacrifice", "higher cause" etc. The only thing that changes is which altar you'd have us sacrifice ourselves on - the altar of god or the altar of society. Well, I can achieve the so-called "greater joy" without sacrificing my earthly pleasures.

I'm no old man to give you wisdom, I'm here to speak my own words, and explain my views.
If you find them worthless, don't reply.

To start with, I did not assert the idea that my views were original. As a matter of fact, people who are applauded in our society today, are people who have sacrificed much, for a greater cause.
Not otherwise.

Here's how the thing called happiness works. You can be happy in any one or more of the following ways:
1. Pleasure
2. Engagement
3. Relationships
4. Meaning
5. Accomplishments.

Amongst these 5, I have little to show. I have no relationship, I have no significant accomplishments which allow me to rise above the regular person, though pleasures of flesh, I can get whenever I want, may it be through wine, or whores.

A meaning though, yes, my life has a meaning. This meaning, however is something that is beyond me. This is what makes it tower over whatever I hope to "accomplish" in life. All my accomplishments, I will dedicate to that meaning alone, which will make accomplishments count for something beyond me and perhaps my close circle of relatives and associates. For no matter how much you accomplish, there will be someon who has accomplished more than you, if you think it through in a personal way. Though if these accomplishments of yours are dedicated to a cause, they will count more than any amount of accomplishments of a single person.

Obviously, the person who hits the high notes on all five is going to be the happiest.

Perhaps. But you ought to know that one generally takes away the other.
Just for an example: I have a relationship. I go and have an affair for my pleasure. She gets to know. I've sacrificed one thing, for another. This is how it goes. You cannot have all, friend.

And here's where you and the other theists go horribly wrong. You think that without god or society giving it to us, our life won't have a meaning.

What sort of a meaning do you have on your own? You're but a single number, if you'd die now, the world wouldn't go under, so what sort of a meaning do you think you possess?

That only meaning to be found in life is by "sacrificing oneself in service of god or society".

If your sacrifice will have a meaning beyond you, I'd say it's a fair deal. Achilles took that deal in the Illiad.

That only accomplishments that count are those made while serving this so-called greater good.

And what sort of accomplishment is there in your pokemon card-collection?

And since atheists and individualists don't do that, all they have left to make them happy are the baser, earthly pleasures.

Well, I'm just hoping that you're going to prove me otherwise.

Yes, I am hellbent on enjoying my life to the fullest and I happen to know that without a meaningful purpose to accomplish, I won't be able to enjoy life to fullest.

Okay...

That doesn't mean that that purpose has to come from outside myself.

Except in the case for a child, seriously no. What sort of purpose beyond the purpose you described above do you hope to make up for yourself?

And you know what I've found - an average Joe who defines and lives for his own purpose, however mundane it may be - is much happier than someone who's had their purpose dictated to them.

Well, there isn't really much of a purpose you can set for your life though. The only thing the average joe without a greater purpose desires in life is a house, a car, perhaps a family if you're into it, children, and perhaps grandchildren. Or if you don't like these, you can choose many of the alternative lifestyles that are available today. It's nothing out of the ordinary, these too, are outlined.

And speaking of average Joes, if your heritage is the source of your pride, then your life must have been devoid of any accomplishments.

Well, I'm 24 years old, I really have not much to show, my friend. And as I said, whatever I have accomplished, I did for a greater purpose. I was not alone, of course, people have helped me, I have helped them, and we tried to do something. We failed, but we've not given up.
And indeed, my heritage is the source of my pride, my friend. Hopefully I will be a source of pride to those that come after me.

Frankly, the pride I take in my capacity to cook good food is much greater than any pride I could hold for my ancestors who may have built a city.

Well, I can't know. Hard to impress the next generations with your cooking skills when you're dead. That's how much your cookings skills matter, my friend. I guess taking pride in your cooking is not a bad thing, but considering themselves above your ancestors who've built cities, fought and died in wars, and have created for you the environment in which you've practiced and developed your cooking skills is nothing but being disrespectful.
A man always must honour and respect his ancestors.