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The Quran - A Miracle
#21
RE: The Quran - A Miracle
(August 6, 2013 at 1:56 pm)Captain Colostomy Wrote:
(August 6, 2013 at 1:47 pm)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: Aside from the the (many) other numerous rebuttals, this is the most interesting question. I look forward to the reply.

If you can guess them before you're told, does that mean you have the gift of prophesy, too? Fucking shweet!

Well let's start guessing.

Hover cars.
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#22
RE: The Quran - A Miracle
(August 6, 2013 at 2:00 pm)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote:
(August 6, 2013 at 1:56 pm)Captain Colostomy Wrote: If you can guess them before you're told, does that mean you have the gift of prophesy, too? Fucking shweet!

Well let's start guessing.

Hover cars.

Genetic engineering (flying horses).
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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#23
RE: The Quran - A Miracle
Apart from what's already been told...
How did Muslims interpret these passages before the 20th century?
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#24
RE: The Quran - A Miracle
(August 6, 2013 at 10:33 am)genkaus Wrote:
(August 6, 2013 at 9:47 am)ThatMuslimGuy2 Wrote:


The rebuttal is simple - religious texts say all sorts of bullshit. And someone, somewhere can twist and turn that bullshit into something that turns out to be meaningful or true. Its like blindly throwing a bunch of darts and saying that since one of them landed in the general vicinity of the target then that must mean that it is a miracle.

Here's a simple test to determine if it was actual knowledge or a lucky guess - what results did it produce? If the Quran had actually known that the universe is expanding, then all scientific knowledge we have related to that prediction would've been available as well. They would've known about theory of relativity and how gravity works and all that. Since we didn't get all that knowledge, the use of the word expanding was simply a fancier way of saying "created". Thus, not a miracle.

On a side note, I totally got semantically satiated by the overuse of the word expanding.

I Agree one statement or a few could just be by chance. But what if there were 10+ similar statements?
Allah says in the Qur'an:

ادْعُ إِلَىٰ سَبِيلِ رَبِّكَ بِالْحِكْمَةِ وَالْمَوْعِظَةِ الْحَسَنَةِ ۖ وَجَادِلْهُمْ بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ ۚ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِمَنْ ضَلَّ عَنْ سَبِيلِهِ ۖ وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِالْمُهْتَدِينَ

"Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided." [Surah 16:125]

Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said: “The most complete in faith are those best in their character, those who are easy to socialise with, and those who get along with others and others get along with them. There is no good in the one who cannot get along with others and others cannot get along with him.” -Tirmidhi

Sahih Muslim, Book 32, Number 6307:
'Abdullah reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: “Truth leads one to Paradise and virtue leads one to Paradise and the person tells the truth until he is recorded as truthful, and lie leads to obscenity and obscenity leads to Hell, and the person tells a lie until he is recorded as a liar.”
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#25
RE: The Quran - A Miracle
Chance multiplied by any number still equals chance.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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#26
RE: The Quran - A Miracle
(August 6, 2013 at 11:36 am)LostLocke Wrote: We've been through this in another thread.
Or maybe it was another site altogether.... maybe TTA.

But anyway, it's funny that these "scientific" discoveries from the Quran weren't realized until after science discovered them.

In other words, no one knew that the Quran was making these predictions until we already knew these things. Where are the people who learned these things prior to modern science?

Even if the Quran was stating these things ahead of modern times, either all the people up until today were too stupid to realize was the book was saying, or it was worded in a way that was so obscure and vague that there was no way to really know what it meant.
Either way, it makes the predictive power of the Quran completely useless.

Case in point:
In the 30s or 20s, I forgot which, they predicted that we would find background microwave radiation in the universe.
At that time they had no way of testing it. It was a very specific prediction, nothing vague or obtuse about it, it was made as an absolute statement.
Fast forward to the 90s and 00s and we have tons of junk up in space looking at the deep reaches of the universe. Guess what we've found..... background microwave radiation.
That's how a prediction works. Seeing a prediction in hindsight, a post-diction, is useless since you know already know it and it had no power to impart any new information prior to that information already being know.

From the 7th century to 21st century the Quran has stated the Universe is expanding. People understood this always. Scholars in tafsirs from the 8th to 21st century talk about it meaning expanding.

(August 6, 2013 at 12:50 pm)Chuck Wrote: What happened to ThatMuslimGuy the 1st?

Forgot the password :-P and the Email
Allah says in the Qur'an:

ادْعُ إِلَىٰ سَبِيلِ رَبِّكَ بِالْحِكْمَةِ وَالْمَوْعِظَةِ الْحَسَنَةِ ۖ وَجَادِلْهُمْ بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ ۚ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِمَنْ ضَلَّ عَنْ سَبِيلِهِ ۖ وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِالْمُهْتَدِينَ

"Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided." [Surah 16:125]

Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said: “The most complete in faith are those best in their character, those who are easy to socialise with, and those who get along with others and others get along with them. There is no good in the one who cannot get along with others and others cannot get along with him.” -Tirmidhi

Sahih Muslim, Book 32, Number 6307:
'Abdullah reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: “Truth leads one to Paradise and virtue leads one to Paradise and the person tells the truth until he is recorded as truthful, and lie leads to obscenity and obscenity leads to Hell, and the person tells a lie until he is recorded as a liar.”
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#27
RE: The Quran - A Miracle
Bugger! Guess I'm converting to Islam now.

Does Mohammed mention any other prophecies that will blow my mind?
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#28
RE: The Quran - A Miracle
(August 6, 2013 at 1:20 pm)viocjit Wrote: Your holy book is false for the next reasons.

1.The legend tell that Allah wrote this book. The angel Jibril appeared to Muhammad and learn to him how recitate each surah.
2.The Qur'an was not wrote by a God because it say that a first man did existed (2:30-2:34).
3.The science say that there are never been a first man. Look information about evolution theory.
4.23:12 this verse say that the bones appear before the flesh. But this is false.
5.How a God can be wrong ?

Ill answer point 4:

You misquoted the verse. The verse is:


وَلَقَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا نُوحًا إِلَىٰ قَوْمِهِ فَقَالَ يَا قَوْمِ اعْبُدُوا اللَّهَ مَا لَكُم مِّنْ إِلَـٰهٍ غَيْرُهُ ۖ أَفَلَا تَتَّقُونَ
فَقَالَ الْمَلَأُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِن قَوْمِهِ مَا هَـٰذَا إِلَّا بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ يُرِيدُ أَن يَتَفَضَّلَ عَلَيْكُمْ وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَأَنزَلَ مَلَائِكَةً مَّا سَمِعْنَا بِهَـٰذَا فِي آبَائِنَا الْأَوَّلِينَ


then We placed him as a Nutfah in a safe place. Then We made that Nutfah into a Alaqah, and then We made that Alaqah into a Mudghah, and We made that Mudghah into bones, and We clothed those bones with flesh, and later We made him into other forms. Glory be to God the best of creators. [Quran 23:13-14]

WHAT WAS CREATED FIRST, BONES OR FLESH?

Commentators on the quranic description of the developing human embryo claim the Qur’an portrays an inaccurate succession of events with regards to the bones and the clothing of the flesh. They declare that bone and muscle formations occur simultaneously, and that the Qur’an uses the connective particle fa, which in the context of the verse, indicates a quick succession of one thing happening after the other. For instance the Qur’an says “We made that lump into bones, and (fa) We clothed those bones with flesh”.

This view represents a misunderstanding of the linguistic context of the verse. The Qur’an’s use of the particle fa is not in the context of creating; rather, it is in the context of clothing the bones with flesh. The Qur’an does not specify when the flesh (or muscles) were formed; it only specifies when the clothing of the limb bones with flesh happens. This, as John Allan and Beverley Kramer explain, is straight after:
Soon after the cartilaginous models of the bones have been established, the myogenic cells, which have now become myoblasts, aggregate to form muscle masses on the ventral and dorsal aspects of the limbs.[1]

A significant clarification to make is that this contention, incorrect as it is, is also not based on a consensus amongst embryologists. According to many embryologists limb bone and muscle formation are not simultaneous. For example embryologist Bruce Carlson confirms that the limb bones are formed before the limb muscles:

The skeleton is the first major tissue of the limb to show overt signs of differentiation.[2]

[1]Ibid.
[2] Bruce M Carlson. Human Embryology and Developmental Biology. 4th Edition. Mosby. 2008, page 224.

(August 6, 2013 at 10:25 am)ChadWooters Wrote: What currently unknown scientific discoveries does the Koran predict?

I got asked this on another website. Still reading up.
Allah says in the Qur'an:

ادْعُ إِلَىٰ سَبِيلِ رَبِّكَ بِالْحِكْمَةِ وَالْمَوْعِظَةِ الْحَسَنَةِ ۖ وَجَادِلْهُمْ بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ ۚ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِمَنْ ضَلَّ عَنْ سَبِيلِهِ ۖ وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِالْمُهْتَدِينَ

"Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided." [Surah 16:125]

Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said: “The most complete in faith are those best in their character, those who are easy to socialise with, and those who get along with others and others get along with them. There is no good in the one who cannot get along with others and others cannot get along with him.” -Tirmidhi

Sahih Muslim, Book 32, Number 6307:
'Abdullah reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: “Truth leads one to Paradise and virtue leads one to Paradise and the person tells the truth until he is recorded as truthful, and lie leads to obscenity and obscenity leads to Hell, and the person tells a lie until he is recorded as a liar.”
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#29
RE: The Quran - A Miracle
I'm wondering if there are any prophecies at all - and remember I'm in the business myself - that were/are known to be such before being discovered independently and then retrofitted into Kerrang poetry?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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#30
RE: The Quran - A Miracle
(August 7, 2013 at 3:12 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Chance multiplied by any number still equals chance.

Right? And if precocious guesses are prophecy, I need to start recording the babblings of the neighborhood three year olds. Just in case.
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