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The Quran - A Miracle
#31
RE: The Quran - A Miracle
(August 7, 2013 at 3:19 pm)Captain Colostomy Wrote:
(August 7, 2013 at 3:12 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Chance multiplied by any number still equals chance.

Right? And if precocious guesses are prophecy, I need to start recording the babblings of the neighborhood three year olds. Just in case.

Only if they happen to coincide with something the prophet wants to count as a hit, or can be made to do so. It's still all guesswork and/or random connections; they just happen to be accurate, in the most mindless way. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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#32
RE: The Quran - A Miracle
(August 7, 2013 at 3:22 pm)Stimbo Wrote:
(August 7, 2013 at 3:19 pm)Captain Colostomy Wrote: Right? And if precocious guesses are prophecy, I need to start recording the babblings of the neighborhood three year olds. Just in case.

Only if they happen to coincide with something the prophet wants to count as a hit, or can be made to do so. It's still all guesswork and/or random connections; they just happen to be accurate, in the most mindless way. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

You, sir, underestimate my translating/editing/contextualizing skills.

All bow to Little Johnny of the Rusted Pram!
Reply
#33
RE: The Quran - A Miracle
(August 6, 2013 at 2:57 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Apart from what's already been told...
How did Muslims interpret these passages before the 20th century?

A brilliant question. Ive answered this on my blog:

http://expanding-universe-quran.blogspot...ct-or.html

(lamūsi’ūna) What does it mean?
لموسعون (lamūsi’ūna) contains the emphatic prefix lām. The prefixed particle lām is usually translated as "surely" or "indeed" and is used to add emphasis. So the word in question really is موسعون (mūsi’ūna).

Now the “ūna” or “oona” in the Arabic language represents a plural. The plural aspect is to denote the majesty and power of god. So the plurality is not in question. What is in question is the word موسع (mūsi)

موسع (mūsi). So what does this mean? Well موسع (mūsi) is one who is engaged in the act of أوسع (Awsa'). So what does أوسع(Awsa') mean?

The classical dictionary Lisan Al-Arab (13th century) says the following:

[Image: 30227ut.png]

In the explanation of the word it is interesting to note that the author actually quotes the verse in question in his explanation. In the section highlighted the author states that the form 2 verb (Red Line) has the same meaning as the verb used in the verse (Blue Line)- to expand something.

In short the author states that the verb وسع (to expand something) has the same meaning as the verb أوسع.

So from Lisan Al-Arab we have come to learn that the verb أوسع (Awsa') means to expand. And موسع (mūsi) is the one who is engaged in أوسع (Awsa') – The Expander.
The one who engages in expanding.

Now let us look at some Classical Commentaries of the Quran to see if they support the translation of “the expanding Universe”.

Tafsir Al-Zamakhshari (Died in the 11 Century A.D)

[Image: 5phrhs.png]

In the commentary of this verse the Scholar gives the following three meanings for the word موسعون (mūsi’ūna):

The Encomposer of the Heavens (Physical and Knowledge)
The Provider (from the Heavens)
The Expander


Tafsir Muqatel ibn Solaiman (767 A.D)

means: we are able to expand it as we want.

تفسير مقاتل بن سليمان/ مقاتل بن سليمان (ت 150 هـ
{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } [آية: 47] يعني نحن قادرون على أن نوسعها كما نريد

Tafsir Al Tabarani (970 A.D)

means :we expand the heaven in every direction.

تفسير التفسير الكبير / للإمام الطبراني (ت 360 ـ)

{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ }؛ في السَّماء على الأرضِ في كلِّ جهاتٍ

Tafsir Bahr Alolum (985 A.D)

means: we are able to expand it as we will.

(فسير بحر العلوم/ السمرقندي

{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } يعني نحن قادرون على أن نوسعها كما نريد

Tafsir Alnukat Waloyon (1058 A.D)

means : we are able to make the heaven expanding more that it is already expanded.

تفسير النكت والعيون/ الماوردي (ت 450 ه)
الثاني: لموسعون السماء، قاله ابن زيد.

الثالث: لقادرون على الاتساع بأكثر من اتساع السماء.


Tafsir Al-Baidawi (Died 1286)

وَٱلسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَـٰهَا بِأَيْدٍ, بقوة. { وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } لقادرون من الوسع بمعنى الطاقة والموسع القادر على الإنفاق. أو { لَمُوسِعُونَ } السماء أو ما بينها وبين الأرض أو الرزق

The translation of the part highlighted in blue reads,

"{lamūsi’ūna } means expanding the sky (heavens) or what is between it and the earth or the (expanding of) sustenance."

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?...&UserProfile=0

Tafsir alfayruz abadi (1414 A.D)

means : we are expanding it as we will.

{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } لها ما نشاء

تفسير القرآن/ الفيروز آبادي (ت817

Tafsir Alqasemy (1913 A.D)

means: we are able to expand it, more than it is already expanded.

تفسير محاسن التأويل / محمد جمال الدين القاسمي (ت 1332هـ
{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } أي: لقادرون على الإيساع، كما أوسعنا بناءها

And many more.

Part of the miraculous nature of the Quran is that uses word(s) that have more than one meaning and all these meanings are intended. So in conclusion after looking at classical commentaries three meanings are given for the word موسعون (mūsi’ūna):

1. To encompass the heavens (Physically, Knowledge, Authority). This means that god encompasses it with his power and that he knows everything through his knowledge and has authority over it.
2. To provide for his creation. One who provides for his creation from the heavens. So physically, like the rain that comes down from the heavens. Or spiritually.
3. To physically expand. Meaning to continuously expand something or to make something vaster.


In summary Classical Linguists and Commentators of the Quran have understood for this verse to refer to the expanding of the Heavens. Tafsirs from the 8th century up to the 21st century have understood موسعون (mūsi’ūna) to mean expander or expanding.

(August 7, 2013 at 3:15 pm)Captain Colostomy Wrote: Bugger! Guess I'm converting to Islam now.

Does Mohammed mention any other prophecies that will blow my mind?

Many more.

Just wanna thank everyone for the feedback!
Allah says in the Qur'an:

ادْعُ إِلَىٰ سَبِيلِ رَبِّكَ بِالْحِكْمَةِ وَالْمَوْعِظَةِ الْحَسَنَةِ ۖ وَجَادِلْهُمْ بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ ۚ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِمَنْ ضَلَّ عَنْ سَبِيلِهِ ۖ وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِالْمُهْتَدِينَ

"Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided." [Surah 16:125]

Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said: “The most complete in faith are those best in their character, those who are easy to socialise with, and those who get along with others and others get along with them. There is no good in the one who cannot get along with others and others cannot get along with him.” -Tirmidhi

Sahih Muslim, Book 32, Number 6307:
'Abdullah reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: “Truth leads one to Paradise and virtue leads one to Paradise and the person tells the truth until he is recorded as truthful, and lie leads to obscenity and obscenity leads to Hell, and the person tells a lie until he is recorded as a liar.”
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#34
RE: The Quran - A Miracle
Quote:Forgot the password :-P and the Email

You mean "allah" couldn't help you find your password? Some god.

The Divine Tiberius could have done it in a heartbeat.


Meanwhile:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CJ/CJ531.html

Quote:Claim CJ531:
The Qur'an speaks of an expanding universe. It says (51:47), "And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it." This indicates the Qur'an's divine origin and thus its accuracy.
Source:
Yahya, Harun, n.d. Miracles of the Qur'an, http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_01.php
Response:

The translation above is mistaken or at best forced. Better translations of the last clause are "we are the ones who enrich it" (Pangloss 2003) or "we it is who made the vast extent" (Pickthall n.d.).

The following verse (51:48) says, "And the earth We have laid out." Suras 51:47-48 appear to be a rough translation of Isaiah 42:5: "Thus says God, the Lord, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread forth the earth and what comes from it. . . ." If divine origin is imputed on the basis of these verses, credit should go to the Bible, not the Qur'an.

The expansion interpretation was not noticed until after the expansion of the universe was well known through scientific observations. If Allah meant the Qur'an to indicate an expanding universe, the verse indicates that He was not competent to communicate clearly.

Links:
Pangloss, Abdul-Kalaam, 2003. The Qur'an and the Big Bang. http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/bigbang.html
References:

Pangloss, 2003. (see above)
Pickthall, Marmaduke, n.d. The Meaning of the Glorious Koran, New York: Dorset Press.

I'm sure "allah" admires your attempts to lie for him...or would if he existed.
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#35
RE: The Quran - A Miracle
I just have this not so crazy notion that hoops were literally jumped through to draw this conclusion, Muslim guy.

Multiple definitions, multiple writers, multiple centuries. In the end, you have the same written word that you argue means 'expanding universe'. So what? Even accepting this is the real meaning(not a foregone conclusion), you're left with a cherrypicked mash up of isolated phrases. This is prophecy to you? Hell, it's a weaksauce one at that. If there are others, I assume they are even more tenuous, otherwise you'd shout them out first. (Cancer is cured in 2078, The Jews rebuild the temple, etc.).

Next time, light the hoops on fire. At least that would entertain.
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#36
RE: The Quran - A Miracle
So just to be clear, where is the passage in the Quran that predicts hover cars?

Or anti-biotics and subsequent resistance. Where is that? Or even LED lights? I'd take the prophecy of a penny farthing as something better than nothing at all.
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[Image: 146748944129044_zpsomrzyn3d.gif]
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#37
RE: The Quran - A Miracle
Here's something you should know before you put too much effort into posting these things about the Qur'an. Personally, if the Qur'an predicted every single thing SPOT ON with no ambiguity for interpretation, I still wouldn't say "therefore God". I would say I don't know how the Qur'an did that. That's the difference between a theist and an atheist, a theist uses god to explain way too much.
Reply
#38
RE: The Quran - A Miracle
(August 7, 2013 at 3:45 pm)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:Forgot the password :-P and the Email

You mean "allah" couldn't help you find your password? Some god.

The Divine Tiberius could have done it in a heartbeat.


Meanwhile:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CJ/CJ531.html

Quote:Claim CJ531:
The Qur'an speaks of an expanding universe. It says (51:47), "And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it." This indicates the Qur'an's divine origin and thus its accuracy.
Source:
Yahya, Harun, n.d. Miracles of the Qur'an, http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_01.php
Response:

The translation above is mistaken or at best forced. Better translations of the last clause are "we are the ones who enrich it" (Pangloss 2003) or "we it is who made the vast extent" (Pickthall n.d.).

The following verse (51:48) says, "And the earth We have laid out." Suras 51:47-48 appear to be a rough translation of Isaiah 42:5: "Thus says God, the Lord, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread forth the earth and what comes from it. . . ." If divine origin is imputed on the basis of these verses, credit should go to the Bible, not the Qur'an.

The expansion interpretation was not noticed until after the expansion of the universe was well known through scientific observations. If Allah meant the Qur'an to indicate an expanding universe, the verse indicates that He was not competent to communicate clearly.

Links:
Pangloss, Abdul-Kalaam, 2003. The Qur'an and the Big Bang. http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/bigbang.html
References:

Pangloss, 2003. (see above)
Pickthall, Marmaduke, n.d. The Meaning of the Glorious Koran, New York: Dorset Press.

I'm sure "allah" admires your attempts to lie for him...or would if he existed.

Strong claims:

Source: http://expanding-universe-quran.blogspot...ct-or.html

Expansion of the Universe in the Qur’an? Fact or Fiction?

In 1925, an American astronomer by the name of Edwin Hubble, provided observational evidence that all galaxies are receding from one another, which implies that the universe is expanding. The expansion of the Universe is now an established scientific fact. Stephen Hawking, in his book, 'A Brief History of Time', says, “The discovery that the universe is expanding was one of the great intellectual revolutions of the 20th century.” The Encyclopaedia Britannica says “The implications of the discovery were immense. The Universe, long considered static, was expanding.”

Surah Adh-Dhariyat Verse 47

In recent years there has been particular controversy about this particular verse in the Qur’an:

47 وَالسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ

Let us analyse this verse word for word.

In Surah Adh-Dhariyat Verse 47 it says:

والسماء بنيناها بايد وانا لموسعون

Waalssamaa banaynaha bi-aydin wa-inna lamoosiAAoona

والسماء (wal-samāa) means - And the heaven
Source: http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.j...51:47:1%29

بنيناها (banaynāhā) means - We constructed/built it
Source: http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.j...51:47:2%29

بايد (bi-aydin) means – Literally with hands. However correct translation is with strength/power.
Source: http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.j...51:47:3%29

وانا (wa-innā) means - and indeed, We
Source: http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.j...51:47:4%29

So far the verse in question would translate to as the following:

And the heaven We constructed/built it with strength/power and indeed, We lamūsi’ūna


لموسعون (lamūsi’ūna) What does it mean?
لموسعون (lamūsi’ūna) contains the emphatic prefix lām. The prefixed particle lām is usually translated as "surely" or "indeed" and is used to add emphasis. So the word in question really is موسعون (mūsi’ūna).

Now the “ūna” or “oona” in the Arabic language represents a plural. The plural aspect is to denote the majesty and power of god. So the plurality is not in question. What is in question is the word موسع (mūsi)

موسع (mūsi). So what does this mean? Well موسع (mūsi) is one who is engaged in the act of أوسع (Awsa'). So what does أوسع(Awsa') mean?

The classical dictionary Lisan Al-Arab (13th century) says the following:

[Image: 30227ut.jpg]

In the explanation of the word it is interesting to note that the author actually quotes the verse in question in his explanation. In the section highlighted the author states that the form 2 verb (Red Line) has the same meaning as the verb used in the verse (Blue Line)- to expand something.

In short the author states that the verb وسع (to expand something) has the same meaning as the verb أوسع.

To check the meaning of وسع to mean expand simply use Google translator:

[Image: ve7l2h.png]
Source: https://translate.google.co.uk/?q=%D9%88...8%B3%D8%B9
(1st meaning)

or
http://dictionary.bau.edu.jo/searchResul...8%B3%D8%B9
(7th meaning)

So from Lisan Al-Arab we have come to learn that the verb أوسع (Awsa') means to expand. And موسع (mūsi) is the one who is engaged in أوسع (Awsa') – The Expander.
The one who engages in expanding.

موسع (mūsi) is an active participle rather than a verb. So what does this mean? The active participle indicates either a state or one who engages in an act continuously. Now a verb is an action that has a beginning and an end. Whereas an active participle is an act that is done continuously.

So it is clear from classical Arabic that موسع (mūsi) can be translated two ways:

1. Expander- One who causes continual expansion.
2. Expanding.


Now let us look at some Classical Commentaries of the Quran to see if they support the translation of “the expanding Universe”.

Tafsir Al-Zamakhshari (Died in the 11 Century A.D)

[Image: 5phrhs.jpg]

In the commentary of this verse the Scholar gives the following three meanings for the word موسعون (mūsi’ūna):

The Encomposer of the Heavens (Physical and Knowledge)
The Provider (from the Heavens)
The Expander


Tafsir Muqatel ibn Solaiman (767 A.D)

means: we are able to expand it as we want.

تفسير مقاتل بن سليمان/ مقاتل بن سليمان (ت 150 هـ
{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } [آية: 47] يعني نحن قادرون على أن نوسعها كما نريد

Tafsir Al Tabarani (970 A.D)

means :we expand the heaven in every direction.

تفسير التفسير الكبير / للإمام الطبراني (ت 360 ـ)

{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ }؛ في السَّماء على الأرضِ في كلِّ جهاتٍ

Tafsir Bahr Alolum (985 A.D)

means: we are able to expand it as we will.

(فسير بحر العلوم/ السمرقندي

{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } يعني نحن قادرون على أن نوسعها كما نريد

Tafsir Alnukat Waloyon (1058 A.D)

means : we are able to make the heaven expanding more that it is already expanded.

تفسير النكت والعيون/ الماوردي (ت 450 ه)
الثاني: لموسعون السماء، قاله ابن زيد.

الثالث: لقادرون على الاتساع بأكثر من اتساع السماء.


Tafsir Al-Baidawi (Died 1286)

وَٱلسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَـٰهَا بِأَيْدٍ, بقوة. { وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } لقادرون من الوسع بمعنى الطاقة والموسع القادر على الإنفاق. أو { لَمُوسِعُونَ } السماء أو ما بينها وبين الأرض أو الرزق

The translation of the part highlighted in blue reads,

"{lamūsi’ūna } means expanding the sky (heavens) or what is between it and the earth or the (expanding of) sustenance."

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?...&UserProfile=0

Tafsir alfayruz abadi (1414 A.D)

means : we are expanding it as we will.

{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } لها ما نشاء

تفسير القرآن/ الفيروز آبادي (ت817

Tafsir Alqasemy (1913 A.D)

means: we are able to expand it, more than it is already expanded.

تفسير محاسن التأويل / محمد جمال الدين القاسمي (ت 1332هـ
{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } أي: لقادرون على الإيساع، كما أوسعنا بناءها

And many more.

Part of the miraculous nature of the Quran is that uses word(s) that have more than one meaning and all these meanings are intended. So in conclusion after looking at classical commentaries three meanings are given for the word موسعون (mūsi’ūna):

1. To encompass the heavens (Physically, Knowledge, Authority). This means that god encompasses it with his power and that he knows everything through his knowledge and has authority over it.
2. To provide for his creation. One who provides for his creation from the heavens. So physically, like the rain that comes down from the heavens. Or spiritually.
3. To physically expand. Meaning to continuously expand something or to make something vaster.


Now as explained earlier these acts are represented by a noun (active participle) and not a verb. So these acts are encompassing, providing sustenance and expanding are not conformed to a particular time. They are on going. As a noun (active participle) indicates:

A perpetual state


Or

One who engages in act continually.


After looking at classical commentaries and classical Arabic dictionaries the word موسعون (mūsi’ūna) can be translated into English two ways:

Expander

This would translate the verse as following:

And the heaven We built it with strength and indeed, We are [its] expander.

This means that god is the one who is expanding the universe continually. This is the clear and literal meaning of the Arabic and is highly supported by classical Tafsirs. It is how Quranic Arabic Corpus have translated the word لموسعون (lamūsi’ūna) - (are) surely (its) Expanders.
Source: http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.j...51:47:5%29

It is further supported by the following translations of the Qur’an:

And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander. [Saheeh International]

And the sky was built by Us with might; and indeed We are the expanders. [Muhammad Taqi Usmani]

We have built the sky with might, and indeed it is We who are its expanders. [Ali Quli Qara'i]

And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and it is We that expand the vastness of space (or We are the expanders of it). [Hamid S. Aziz]

Expanding

This would translate the verse as following:

And the heaven We built it with strength and indeed, We are expanding it.

The translation of expanding comes from the fact that the word is an active participle meaning one is continually doing the action. Is this case continually expanding. This translation is clearly supported by the Arabic and supported by classical Tafsirs.

Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips - who studied at the Islamic University of Madeenah University and King Saud University and studied B.A. Islamic Studies ,M.A. Aqeedah, & PhD Islamic Theology - in his book Usool At-Tafseer, page 71, talks about موسعون (mūsi’ūna) and how it means expanding and is an active participle.

“The heaven I created by might, and, verily, I am expanding it.

The Arabic word moos’ioon is an active participle. It indicates an ongoing action that is occurring at the present time and will continue into the future. It was not until the invention of the spectrograph and the development of a huge (100 in. diameter) reflecting telecope that Edward Hubble was able to discover other galaxies in 1926 and to document in 1927 the red shift of their spectra that indicates they are moving away from ours…”
Source: http://kalamullah.com/Books/Usool%20at-Tafseer.pdf

Abul Ala Maududi in Tafhim al-Qur'an (The Meaning of the Quran) writes the following in the footnotes of Surah 51:47:

“The word must' (pl. musi'un) may mean the one who possesses power and means, and also the one who can extend and expand something. According to the first meaning, the verse would mean: "We have built this heaven by Our own might and not with somebody else's help, and its erection was in no way beyond Us. Then how can you ever conceive that We shall not be able to recreate it ?" According to the second meaning, it would mean: "This huge universe that We have created, is not a finished work, but We are expanding it continuously, and new and ever new manifestations of Our creation are appearing in it every moment. How do you then think that such a marvelous Creator would not be able to repeat His creation.”

It is further supported by the following translations of the Qur’an:

AND IT IS We who have built the universe with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it. [Muhammad Asad]

And the heaven with its regions, spheres and realms of space did We skillfully, powerfully and authoritatively construct and We are expanding the universe. [Al-Muntakhab]

And We constructed the universe using matter, and We will expand it. [Progressive Muslims]

And the heaven, We have constructed it mightily, and it is surely We Who have vast power, and keep expanding it. [Ali Ünal]

And it is We Who have built the Universe, and behold, We are steadily expanding it. [Shabbir Ahmed]

With Our power and prowess, We brought into being the universe. And indeed, We expand it (steadily)! [Dr. Munir Munshey]

And We built the heavenly universe with great might. And surely, We are expanding (this universe) more and more. [Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri]

And the heaven: We constructed it with (Our Own) hands; and surely We are indeed those Who make expansion and create vastness. [Dr. Kamal Omar]

We constructed the universe with power, and We are expanding it. [Talal A. Itani]

I (God) have created the universe myself and will continue to expand it [confirmation of the expansion theory of the universe after the Big Bang.] [Bijan Moeinian]

We constructed the sky with our hands, and we will continue to expand it. [Rashad Khalifa]

In conclusion the translation of ‘Expander’ or ‘Expanding’ for the word موسعون (mūsi’ūna) is clear from the Arabic language and is highly supported in classical Tafsirs. It is not a ‘new modern translation’ in order to make the Qur’an appear miraculous.

Common Contention 1

A common contention to the “Expanding Universe” in the Qur’an is to quote three popular translations – Yusuf Ali, Pickthall and Shakir- and say these only translated it as that God made the Heavens Vast. The Translations read:
Yusuf Ali:
[051:047] With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
Pickthall:
[051:047] We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
Shakir:
[051:047] And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

Although an honest contention – one I held until looking further into the topic- it is misplaced for the following reasons:

The Qur’an can never be translated 100% perfectly. Especially into English due to the vast differences in the Language. Each translation is a translators attempt to put across the meaning of the Quranic words used.
Naturally this can contain errors.
Or translations that do not fully grasp the language.
Also one word may have multiple meanings and it is hard to translate all the possible meanings encompassed in a word so a translator may discard some meanings.
Also Yusuf Ali, Pickthall and Shakir are not some “Golden Translations” that are 100% correct. Infact they do contain errors and sections where the translators haven’t grasped the original language. For example:


Allah says in Surah An-Naba’ verses 1-2:

سورة النبا بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم ٛــــ عم يتساءلون
‏ عن النبأ العظيم

Transliteration:
[078:001] AAamma yatasaaloona
[078:002] AAani alnnaba-i alAAatheemi

Interpretation and Meaning:

Saheeh International:

[078:001] About what are they asking one another?
[078:002] About the great news –

Yusuf Ali:
[078:001] Concerning what are they disputing?
[078:002] Concerning the Great News,

Dr. Munir Munshey
[078:001] What are they asking each other about?
[078:002] The awesome news (of the afterlife)?

Sher Ali:
[078:001] What do they question one another about ?
[078:002] About the mighty Event,

Shakir:
[078:001] Of what do they ask one another?
[078:002] About the great event,

Sale:
[078:001] Concerning what do the unbelievers ask questions of one another?
[078:002] Concerning the great news of the resurrection,

Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan:
[078:001] What are they asking (one another)?
[078:002] About the great news, (i.e. Islamic Monotheism, the Quran, which Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)brought and the Day of Resurrection, etc.),

Palmer:
[078:001] Of what do they ask each other?-
[078:002] Of the mighty information

Arberry:
[078:001] Of what do they question one another?
[078:002] Of the mighty tiding

Khalifa:
[078:001] What are they questioning?
[078:002] The great event.

Rodwell:
[078:001] Of what ask they of one another?
[078:002] Of the great NEWS.

We get the image of great or good news. But look how Pickthall translates the verse:

Pickthall:
[078:001] Whereof do they question one another ?
[078:002] (It is) of the awful tidings,

This is a crazy mistake! Pickthall translates the Arabic as awful tidings instead of good tidings. A huge error. Are the sceptics really pointing to a translation such as this which contains such grave errors as a “Golden Translation” - that translates the Quran 100% correct? It would be idiotic to.

They also contain translations that don’t fully grasp the language or have translated something poorly. Here is an example:

Allah says in Surah Al-Fil verse 3:

وارسل عليهم طيرا ابابيل

Transliteration:
[105:003] Waarsala AAalayhim tayran ababeela

Interpretation and Meaning:
Dr. Munir Munshey:
[105:003] He let loose upon them a large flock of birds,

Sher Ali:
[105:003] And HE sent against them swarm of birds,

Sale:
[105:003] and send against them flocks of birds,

Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan:
[105:003] And sent against them birds, in flocks,

Palmer:
[105:003] and send down on them birds in flocks,

Birds is clear correct translation. However lets how Pickthall translated it:

Pickthall:
[105:003] And send against them swarms of flying creatures,

Although this isn’t 100% erroneous it hasn’t really grasped the meaning of the Arabic.

If we are going to point to translations why don’t I just point to these translations?


AND IT IS We who have built the universe with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it. [Muhammad Asad]

And the heaven with its regions, spheres and realms of space did We skillfully, powerfully and authoritatively construct and We are expanding the universe. [Al-Muntakhab]

And We constructed the universe using matter, and We will expand it. [Progressive Muslims]

And the heaven, We have constructed it mightily, and it is surely We Who have vast power, and keep expanding it. [Ali Ünal]

And it is We Who have built the Universe, and behold, We are steadily expanding it. [Shabbir Ahmed]

With Our power and prowess, We brought into being the universe. And indeed, We expand it (steadily)! [Dr. Munir Munshey]

And We built the heavenly universe with great might. And surely, We are expanding (this universe) more and more. [Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri]

And the heaven: We constructed it with (Our Own) hands; and surely We are indeed those Who make expansion and create vastness. [Dr. Kamal Omar]

We constructed the universe with power, and We are expanding it. [Talal A. Itani]

I (God) have created the universe myself and will continue to expand it [confirmation of the expansion theory of the universe after the Big Bang.] [Bijan Moeinian]

We constructed the sky with our hands, and we will continue to expand it. [Rashad Khalifa]

And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander. [Saheeh International]

And the sky was built by Us with might; and indeed We are the expanders. [Muhammad Taqi Usmani]

We have built the sky with might, and indeed it is We who are its expanders. [Ali Quli Qara'i]

And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and it is We that expand the vastness of space (or We are the expanders of it). [Hamid S. Aziz]

Finally as demonstrated above it is clear that موسعون (mūsi’ūna) can mean the expander or expanding.


Common Contention Number 2

No-one pre 1930’s –Especially Muslim Scholars – translated the verse to mean that the heavens are expanding. It is a new modern translation invented to make the Qur’an look miraculous.
Rebuttal:

On the face of it to any non-arabic speaking person this seems a true statement. Until we actually look at Classical Arabic Dictionaries and Classical Scholarly Tafsirs.

As deomonstrated earlier from the classical dictionary موسعون (mūsi’ūna) does mean the Expander or Expanding. So it was understood by classical linguists to mean this.

And it was also understood in many classical Tafsir works:

Tafsir Al-Zamakhshari (Died in the 11 Century A.D)

[Image: 5phrhs.jpg]
In the commentary of this verse the Scholar gives the following three meanings for the word موسعون (mūsi’ūna):

1. The Encomposer of the Heavens (Physical and Knowledge)
2. The Provider (from the Heavens)
3. The Expander

Tafsir Muqatel ibn Solaiman (767 A.D)

means: we are able to expand it as we want.

تفسير مقاتل بن سليمان/ مقاتل بن سليمان (ت 150 هـ
{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } [آية: 47] يعني نحن قادرون على أن نوسعها كما نريد

Tafsir Al Tabarani (970 A.D)

means :we expand the heaven in every direction.

تفسير التفسير الكبير / للإمام الطبراني (ت 360 ـ)

{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ }؛ في السَّماء على الأرضِ في كلِّ جهاتٍ

Tafsir Bahr Alolum (985 A.D)

means: we are able to expand it as we will.

(فسير بحر العلوم/ السمرقندي

{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } يعني نحن قادرون على أن نوسعها كما نريد

Tafsir Alnukat Waloyon (1058 A.D)

means : we are able to make the heaven expanding more that it is already expanded.

تفسير النكت والعيون/ الماوردي (ت 450 ه)
الثاني: لموسعون السماء، قاله ابن زيد.

الثالث: لقادرون على الاتساع بأكثر من اتساع السماء.


Tafsir Al-Baidawi (Died 1286)

وَٱلسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَـٰهَا بِأَيْدٍ, بقوة. { وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } لقادرون من الوسع بمعنى الطاقة والموسع القادر على الإنفاق. أو { لَمُوسِعُونَ } السماء أو ما بينها وبين الأرض أو الرزق

The translation of the part highlighted in blue reads,

"{lamūsi’ūna } means expanding the sky (heavens) or what is between it and the earth or the (expanding of) sustenance."

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?...&UserProfile=0

Tafsir alfayruz abadi (1414 A.D)

means : we are expanding it as we will.

{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } لها ما نشاء

تفسير القرآن/ الفيروز آبادي (ت817

Tafsir Alqasemy (1913 A.D)

means: we are able to expand it, more than it is already expanded.

تفسير محاسن التأويل / محمد جمال الدين القاسمي (ت 1332هـ
{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } أي: لقادرون على الإيساع، كما أوسعنا بناءها

And many more.

Part of the miraculous nature of the Quran is that uses word(s) that have more than one meaning and all these meanings are intended. So in conclusion after looking at classical commentaries three meanings are given for the word موسعون (mūsi’ūna):

1. To encompass the heavens (Physically, Knowledge, Authority). This means that god encompasses it with his power and that he knows everything through his knowledge and has authority over it.
2. To provide for his creation. One who provides for his creation from the heavens. So physically, like the rain that comes down from the heavens. Or spiritually.
3. To physically expand. Meaning to continuously expand something or to make something vaster.

In summary Classical Linguists and Commentators of the Quran have understood for this verse to refer to the expanding of the Heavens. Tafsirs from the 8th century up to the 21st century have understood موسعون (mūsi’ūna) to mean expander or expanding. So the allegation that no-one pre-1930s understood موسعون (mūsi’ūna) this way is a false statement.

Conclusion

The Arabic word موسعون (mūsi’ūna) after exploring Classical Dictionaries and Classical Commentarys means “The Expander” or “Expanding”. It is an active participle which means that the action is continous meaning the expansion is continous.

This means that the Expansion of the Universe is clearly described in the Quran. This leaves a real question that one must ask yourself. How did an illiterate man who lived in the desert from the 7th century know that the universe is expanding? The answer is he couldn’t have demonstrating the true miraculous nature of the Quran and that infact the Quran is the word of God.

If you are still unsure about the meaning of موسعون (mūsi’ūna) and would like further information I recommend watching the following video which provides a summary of all the points I have mentioned :

Part 1:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=relmfu&v=XRd3loZFsxM
Part 2:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_Y-U6YeceH0

I would like to end by saying All Praise Is Due To Allah, Lord of the Worlds who sent down the miraculous Quran as guidance for Mankind. Any good is this work is from Allah and any errors or badness is from myself and the shaytan.

And As Always Allah Knows Best
Allah says in the Qur'an:

ادْعُ إِلَىٰ سَبِيلِ رَبِّكَ بِالْحِكْمَةِ وَالْمَوْعِظَةِ الْحَسَنَةِ ۖ وَجَادِلْهُمْ بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ ۚ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِمَنْ ضَلَّ عَنْ سَبِيلِهِ ۖ وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِالْمُهْتَدِينَ

"Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided." [Surah 16:125]

Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said: “The most complete in faith are those best in their character, those who are easy to socialise with, and those who get along with others and others get along with them. There is no good in the one who cannot get along with others and others cannot get along with him.” -Tirmidhi

Sahih Muslim, Book 32, Number 6307:
'Abdullah reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: “Truth leads one to Paradise and virtue leads one to Paradise and the person tells the truth until he is recorded as truthful, and lie leads to obscenity and obscenity leads to Hell, and the person tells a lie until he is recorded as a liar.”
Reply
#39
RE: The Quran - A Miracle
Muslim Guy: Do you have anything original? Anything at all that's not copypasta?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
Reply
#40
RE: The Quran - A Miracle
(August 7, 2013 at 4:23 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Muslim Guy: Do you have anything original? Anything at all that's not copypasta?

That is original. Its my blog i wrote it. The link i provided is an article i specifcally written and researched myself.
Allah says in the Qur'an:

ادْعُ إِلَىٰ سَبِيلِ رَبِّكَ بِالْحِكْمَةِ وَالْمَوْعِظَةِ الْحَسَنَةِ ۖ وَجَادِلْهُمْ بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ ۚ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِمَنْ ضَلَّ عَنْ سَبِيلِهِ ۖ وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِالْمُهْتَدِينَ

"Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided." [Surah 16:125]

Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said: “The most complete in faith are those best in their character, those who are easy to socialise with, and those who get along with others and others get along with them. There is no good in the one who cannot get along with others and others cannot get along with him.” -Tirmidhi

Sahih Muslim, Book 32, Number 6307:
'Abdullah reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: “Truth leads one to Paradise and virtue leads one to Paradise and the person tells the truth until he is recorded as truthful, and lie leads to obscenity and obscenity leads to Hell, and the person tells a lie until he is recorded as a liar.”
Reply



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