What if Jesus had failed?

[Cato]

Funny thing about Christians...

Christians will revel in the fact that Christ turned water into wine, yet proclaim that he never got his dick wet. Something about the story is seriously misplaced, particularly considering the number of groupies.

[MindForgedManacle]

If I understand correctly, Jesus did in fact fail as far as the Jews interpretation of the Hebrew Bible goes, i.e the Messiah was supposed to usher in David's kingdom on Earth. And Jesus was among a number of supposed messiahs (we know about like a dozen, meaning there were probably a lot more), and some of those 'messiahs' had followers far outstripping Jesus of Nazareth. Even the general type of Christianity that happened to survive was largely because of a particular trait of Roman society: they placed more stock in things with a long tradition. Hence Marcionite Christianity, which claimed the God of Christianity was a different god than that of the Jews and was therefore seen as "new", didn't get Constantine's support.

[Sword of Christ]

Christians will revel in the fact that Christ turned water into wine, yet proclaim that he never got his dick wet. Something about the story is seriously misplaced, particularly considering the number of groupies.

There is some evidence to suggest that Jesus was married. I don't know whether that was Mary Madeleine in the classic Dan Brown tradition. He certainly had something of as strong view of marriage and was very much against divorce.

The water into wine was in the gospel of John so is probably symbolic. It may have been based on Moses turning water in blood in the Old Testament.

[smax]

Actually he did not. He said he would return before these wicked people/nation or nationality of people were wiped off of the face of the earth. Again as I and the strongs lexicon and concordance pointed out the word for generation is the same word for a given group of people/race of people.

In short Christ promised to return before the Jews were wiped out. As they are still (miraculously) here (as no people has ever survived without a nation) Christ's prophesy still stands.

Twist it all you like, as I'm sure you need to in order to get a good night's sleep. But the fact remains that your assessment is inconsistent with all other uses of the term "Jews" in the New Testament.

Like I said, it's blatantly clear what is being said here, and I will demonstrate that by showing what Jesus' followers response was:

“Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son…”

(Hebrews 1:1-2)

“Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.”

(1 Corinthians 10:11)

“And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.”

(Hebrews 10:24-25)

“Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.”

(1 John 2:18)

“Do not seek a wife. This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short. From now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.”

(1 Corinthians 7:27,29-31)

“The end of all things is near…”

(1 Peter 4:7)

If that was clear enough, let me be even more clear:

“For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.”

(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)

“We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed“

(1 Cor. 15:51)

“…the coming of the Lord is near. …the Judge is standing right at the door.”

(James 5:8, 9)

Call me crazy, but these don't seem like people who are expecting the entire Jewish race to be exterminated prior to Jesus return.

But it should be entertaining watching you twist this one up.

[Tonus]

You seem determined to reject anything that seems even slightly beyond the everyday mundane. It's reactions like this that lead me to think that atheism is like some kind of dogmatic/fundamentalist religion.

You're describing skepticism moreso than atheism. The skeptic does not automatically reject every possible explanation for an event or occurrence. But he is likely to expect the explanation to be the most likely one, given past experiences and explanations. As Minimalist pointed out, if the vast majority of UFO sightings have proven to be something other than a UFO (as well as nothing particularly out of the ordinary), it's likely that the rest have a similar explanation.

There have been many unsolved crimes in the past. One example being the daring hijacker D. B. Cooper, who jumped out of a plane in the American Northwest with $200,000 and was never found. There are many possible explanations for his fate, and most people would expect something relatively mundane. Perhaps he did not survive and his remains are lost to us. Perhaps he did and managed a pretty amazing getaway. I doubt anyone would believe you if you offered up the explanation that Cooper had sprouted wings and flown to Canada. You can make that claim and point out that there's no way to prove you wrong, but you still would not convince many people, if any.

[ThomM]

Most (all?) Christian denominations believe that god took on a human form and offered it as a sacrifice that presents imperfect and sinful humans the opportunity to be saved. The Biblical story of Jesus' life tells us that he succeeded in this endeavor. As a hypothetical, what do you think would have happened had he failed? I can only really imagine that he would have failed by committing a sin and therefore becoming imperfect.

First, an explanation of the poll options:

1- Didn't happen: this is the one to select if you lack imagination or are worried about speculating on such things. Since the Bible tells us that Jesus succeeded in offering a perfect life as a sacrifice, you find the whole discussion to be moot.

2- Couldn't happen: there are two ways to consider this. One, that it would have been impossible for Jesus to sin. That would imply that the whole thing was rigged. Two, that as a perfect human being, Jesus could only have committed a sin through a willful act. And that would have been completely contrary to what he took on a human form to do, as well as giving Satan a victory. That also implies that the game was rigged, in that Jesus would have had to act against his nature in order to fail.

3- Reset button: this is where things can get interesting. Let's assume that he did fail. He knowingly committed a sin and could no longer offer up his human form as a ransom for humanity. What would happen? Would he simply conjure up a new body and start over? Would he consider the whole experiment a failure and wipe out Earth, or even the whole universe? It's not like the next Earth/universe would ever have to know that he messed up. In all honesty, what do you think would have been the ramifications of failure?

4- The End of All Things: or would failure have created a paradox that would have necessarily destroyed even god himself? If Jesus failed, then Satan was right. If Jesus failed, then creation was not "good" and god was not infallible. God would have become something competely contrary to his nature and could not survive such a discrepancy.

The fourth option makes the second one seem the most plausible. It was impossible for god to fail, and therefore the game was rigged. Jesus could not have done any differently than he did, which made his sacrifice superfluous. Does that make sense?

BONUS QUESTION: Is it possible that this isn't the first universe that god created? Or the first planet populated with sentient beings? Maybe we're the third or fourth iteration, and god is STILL getting it wrong? If he wiped everything out and started over, how would we know? Maybe he just seems infallible because we haven't searched far enough in the universe to find the carpet that he swept his earlier messes under?

HOW WOULD WE KNOW???? omg!

Actually - the Mythical christ - in the Bible - did BREAK the laws of his religion and so was NOT perfect to begin with.

The word "sin" however - in this context - is a meaningless word

In religions - sin is an offense against a god. There being no gods proven to exist - there is NO such offense to establish.

If you choose to use the bible - and the actions of the "god" in the bible to establish sin - the god CREATED evil - murdered - and performed all sorts of EVIL acts - AND said everything was "GOOD". So - with a god as described - how could one offend a depraved monster like the god of the bible and actually commit a "sin".


Now - if the god is "all knowing - past - present - and future" as the religion claimed - everything that happens and happened was already known by the god BEFORE it happened - and therefore NONE of it can be changed to something the god did not know. S0 - since EVERYTHING must be pre-ordained to have an all knowing god - then the story was not of FREE WILL - since no one can OPT to do something the god does not know.


AS far as saving is concerned - we already know that the FABLE of EDEN is just a MYTH - and did not happen as claimed in the bible - since there were humans on earth long before the beginning of the bible - and the Universe existed Billions of years before the "creation" of 6000 years ago in the bible- THE claim of the god creation in the bible is nothing more than a fraud.

That having been said - why does ANYONE believe this nonsense - it is because they were taught to long before they had a chance to make up their own minds. A rational and educated person would look at the bible as a whole - and religious claims - and LAUGH.

[Sword of Christ]

You're describing skepticism moreso than atheism.

I think you'll find it's the same thing, though perhaps atheism is slightly more than skepticism.

The skeptic does not automatically reject every possible explanation for an event or occurrence. But he is likely to expect the explanation to be the most likely one, given past experiences and explanations. As Minimalist pointed out, if the vast majority of UFO sightings have proven to be something other than a UFO (as well as nothing particularly out of the ordinary), it's likely that the rest have a similar explanation.

Like I said 95% are naturally explainable and 5% are likely to be unmanned probes. They could be something else but that explanation would seem like the most reasonable. Bear in mind these objects are tracked on radar and are seen by reputable sources. We're talking professional trained pilots and even the crew of the Apollo first mission to land on the moon these guys aren't crackpots or something. It seems likely these things have been appearing for thousands of years ass reports of them go way way back.

[Bad Writer]

That's an interesting claim. Do you have any examples of confirmed sightings that go way back?

[Godscreated]

---

Most (all?) Christian denominations believe that god took on a human form and offered it as a sacrifice that presents imperfect and sinful humans the opportunity to be saved. The Biblical story of Jesus' life tells us that he succeeded in this endeavor. As a hypothetical, what do you think would have happened had he failed? I can only really imagine that he would have failed by committing a sin and therefore becoming imperfect.

First, an explanation of the poll options:

1- Didn't happen: this is the one to select if you lack imagination or are worried about speculating on such things. Since the Bible tells us that Jesus succeeded in offering a perfect life as a sacrifice, you find the whole discussion to be moot.

2- Couldn't happen: there are two ways to consider this. One, that it would have been impossible for Jesus to sin. That would imply that the whole thing was rigged. Two, that as a perfect human being, Jesus could only have committed a sin through a willful act. And that would have been completely contrary to what he took on a human form to do, as well as giving Satan a victory. That also implies that the game was rigged, in that Jesus would have had to act against his nature in order to fail.

3- Reset button: this is where things can get interesting. Let's assume that he did fail. He knowingly committed a sin and could no longer offer up his human form as a ransom for humanity. What would happen? Would he simply conjure up a new body and start over? Would he consider the whole experiment a failure and wipe out Earth, or even the whole universe? It's not like the next Earth/universe would ever have to know that he messed up. In all honesty, what do you think would have been the ramifications of failure?

4- The End of All Things: or would failure have created a paradox that would have necessarily destroyed even god himself? If Jesus failed, then Satan was right. If Jesus failed, then creation was not "good" and god was not infallible. God would have become something competely contrary to his nature and could not survive such a discrepancy.

The fourth option makes the second one seem the most plausible. It was impossible for god to fail, and therefore the game was rigged. Jesus could not have done any differently than he did, which made his sacrifice superfluous. Does that make sense?

BONUS QUESTION: Is it possible that this isn't the first universe that god created? Or the first planet populated with sentient beings? Maybe we're the third or fourth iteration, and god is STILL getting it wrong? If he wiped everything out and started over, how would we know? Maybe he just seems infallible because we haven't searched far enough in the universe to find the carpet that he swept his earlier messes under?

HOW WOULD WE KNOW???? omg!

---

Actually - the Mythical christ - in the Bible - did BREAK the laws of his religion and so was NOT perfect to begin with.

The word "sin" however - in this context - is a meaningless word

In religions - sin is an offense against a god. There being no gods proven to exist - there is NO such offense to establish.

If you choose to use the bible - and the actions of the "god" in the bible to establish sin - the god CREATED evil - murdered - and performed all sorts of EVIL acts - AND said everything was "GOOD". So - with a god as described - how could one offend a depraved monster like the god of the bible and actually commit a "sin".


Now - if the god is "all knowing - past - present - and future" as the religion claimed - everything that happens and happened was already known by the god BEFORE it happened - and therefore NONE of it can be changed to something the god did not know. S0 - since EVERYTHING must be pre-ordained to have an all knowing god - then the story was not of FREE WILL - since no one can OPT to do something the god does not know.


AS far as saving is concerned - we already know that the FABLE of EDEN is just a MYTH - and did not happen as claimed in the bible - since there were humans on earth long before the beginning of the bible - and the Universe existed Billions of years before the "creation" of 6000 years ago in the bible- THE claim of the god creation in the bible is nothing more than a fraud.

That having been said - why does ANYONE believe this nonsense - it is because they were taught to long before they had a chance to make up their own minds. A rational and educated person would look at the bible as a whole - and religious claims - and LAUGH.

You are full of explanations for how scriptures and God are wrong, now how about backing up those positive statements with some proof please. Because you decided to use things about the Bible it would be nice to see some of your defense come from scripture.

GC

[MindForgedManacle]

I think you'll find it's the same thing, though perhaps atheism is slightly more than skepticism.

And you're completely wrong. They are not the same. I've known skeptics who weren't atheists, and atheists who weren't skeptics. They're not anything like interchangeable.

Like I said 95% are naturally explainable and 5% are likely to be unmanned probes. They could be something else but that explanation would seem like the most reasonable. Bear in mind these objects are tracked on radar and are seen by reputable sources. We're talking professional trained pilots and even the crew of the Apollo first mission to land on the moon these guys aren't crackpots or something. It seems likely these things have been appearing for thousands of years ass reports of them go way way back.

Okay, defend your claim. Assuming that 95% are in fact explainable, what does that allow you to conclude about the other 5%, hm? NOTHING... well, accept one thing: they currently aren't explicable, either due to our current limitations or due to lack of data. The skeptic wins this bout hands down, because by necessity even if there are existent unmanned ET probes, the likelihood that any UFO sighting is of one of them is hilariously low.