Not again! -- Encouragement Please

[Foxaèr]

It is with who you think God to be, and because you can not reconcile your personal understanding of God with the description of God found in the bible.

[Drich]

Whoever claims to have created reality needs to be able to face up to reality. The bible needs to be compared to reality and hold its own. It obviously fails to do so. This is inexcusable for a supposed creator.

reality is only based on your ablity to perceive and understand what is happening around you. Reality simply is, however our understanding of it changes from generation to generation. If you can not understand what God has done, it's not God's fault. The burden is on you to seek understanding beyond what you are currently comfortable with.

Of course you'd encourage people to look at the bible alone.

When have I done this? or are you simply ignoring the majority of my post so you can play to a steriotype you are comfortable with? Because in your 'reality' this is what ALL Christian's do.

See if your ablity to reason is tied to your biased understanding of 'reality' (As just outlined above) then how is it God's doing that you have a hard time perceiving what is 'real' and what is not?

Look at what god claims to do rather than the reality god claims to be responsible for. From reality I tend to think that god is quite the monster.

But, we have already shown 'your reality' takes truth and twists it to coinside with your 'feelings' on a subject matter. That makes Your reality not objective nor dependable. so how can we then say your personal judgement of God is just or dependable?

But even if you disagree with my assessment, you did claim that god will be willing to give people deadly diseases just to prove a point.

where exactly?

I'm afraid that's too immoral and distasteful for us, as I doubt many on this forum would willingly infect someone with AIDS just to prove a point.

Have we not been over the defination of 'morality' yet?

I don't think many will want to be friends with your god let alone worship him.

on this I agree.

[Ryantology]

Your problem is not with Genesis. It is with who you think God to be, and because you can not reconcile your personal understanding of God with the description of God found in the bible, you assume the bible is in error. If you took the time to take an honest look at the God of the bible and build your understanding of God off of the bible alone you would not find error nor contradiction.

The problem is that none of us can read about the berserk psychopath of the OT or the manipulative sociopath of the NT and accept that such a being is the source of all that is good in the universe. Well, that and the obvious fictional nature of the whole thing.

Before you start trying to sell us on the benefits of worshiping a berserk psychopath/manipulative sociopath, you have to clear the hurdle of proving that your God is objectively real. How God is described is rather beside the point until you figure that one out.

In fact, I would suggest that an atheist 'understands' God according to the Bible better than anyone, for we understand that he doesn't exist except as a character on its pages.

[Jackalope]

If there is a god, he won't put you in hell because you don't believe in one god (as opposed to the thousands of others). I assume he'd send people to hell for being dicks. So don't be a dick.

I would hope that you're right, however, given how scriptures describe some folk's god - it appears that he's a bit of a dick himself. That is, if he existed, and wasn't just a manifestation of some dick's fantasies.

[Drich]

Bang on the nail - @Drich and @GC I pose a challenge for both of you to prove your theory correct.

I felt I blasphemed because I said the 'Holy Spirit was like a Demon' in the context that they shared afew common attributes 'Spritual Beings / Both Control People / One is Good the Other is Evil (antonym)' So I challenge you to agree with me on that statement. If you dont believe it was blasphemy then you will have no problem.

If you think that its unbelief until death then you shouldent have a problem agreeing with the context of my sentance. I am not saying one is Equal to the other just that they both are similar on afew things.

If you cannot agree on that then I cannot follow your God, If you both agree that what I said there was Theologicially correct you may well be in with a Chance to winning me back! Over to you.

Thanks @Pineapple and @Captain Colostomy you folks speak sense

Agree with what? that the Holy spirit is like a demon because He possess people? What if your analogy is wrong?

The Holy Spirit is an intercessor, a link between you and the Father. not someone who makes you puke clam chower instead of pea soup.

Not to mention you still have a huge obstical to over come in my last rebuttal.

No where in the account of Mat or Mark did the Pharisees verbaly mention the Holy Spirit. Their blaspheme according to those two accounts were based on the Hearts that Christ judged to be blasphmous towards the Holy Spirit. The Pharisees did not even know what a 'Holy Spirit' was let alone 'take His name in vein.' (Which btw is what you think blaspheme is.) In this case according to the words and actions of Christ is not the case.

[pineapplebunnybounce]

Of course you'd encourage people to look at the bible alone.

When have I done this? or are you simply ignoring the majority of my post so you can play to a steriotype you are comfortable with? Because in your 'reality' this is what ALL Christian's do.

See if your ablity to reason is tied to your biased understanding of 'reality' (As just outlined above) then how is it God's doing that you have a hard time perceiving what is 'real' and what is not?

The vast majority of the problems you have with genesis is that the God depicted in the bible does not align with the picture of God you hold in your mind. In short you were never taught to worship the God of the bible. You were given a picture of God in your religion, and assumed it is correct. But, when you compared that religious picture of God to what is written in the bible, you found it to be in error.

Your problem is not with Genesis. It is with who you think God to be, and because you can not reconcile your personal understanding of God with the description of God found in the bible, you assume the bible is in error. If you took the time to take an honest look at the God of the bible and build your understanding of God off of the bible alone you would not find error nor contradiction.

But even if you disagree with my assessment, you did claim that god will be willing to give people deadly diseases just to prove a point.

where exactly?

I'm afraid that's too immoral and distasteful for us, as I doubt many on this forum would willingly infect someone with AIDS just to prove a point.

Have we not been over the defination of 'morality' yet?

I'm really disgusted that there is a human being who would wish AIDS or deadly disease on someone just to prove a point. Fuck you and fuck your god.

Not wish, Pray for it upon receiving your blessing to do so. And, it does not have to be just AIDS It could be a stroke, or cancer or anything else that it might take to save your soul. God knows how to break your pride just right, in order for you to know without doubt or hesitation that He not only exists, but you can see and hear Him working in your life.

Again I point back to what Christ said on John 12:
23 Jesus said to them, “The time has come for the Son of Man to receive his glory. 24 It is a fact that a grain of wheat must fall to the ground and die before it can grow and produce much more wheat. If it never dies, it will never be more than a single seed. 25 Whoever loves the life they have now will lose it. But whoever is willing to give up their life in this world will keep it. They will have eternal life. 26 Whoever serves me must follow me. My servants must be with me everywhere I am. My Father will give honor to anyone who serves me.

I am not praying for your death and subsequent judgement. I will be praying that you be subject to whatever it takes to provide you with eternal life. For some this could mean a winning lottery ticket, but to the hard hearted this usally means to be broken Spiritually which usally follows a physical break in one's health. Again whatever it takes is the key here. Not nessarily your death.

Not interested in your brand of morality nor am I interested in talking to someone about reality when they don't know the difference between perception and reality. Again, buy a dictionary.

[Godscreated]

Hey
@GodsChild - You said to stop relying on people for my answers, Why shouldn't I? I have prayed to God and he left me to feel the pain of this for months so obviously if he loved me in any way shape or form he would have given me a clear sign! One that is 'Beyond Reasonable Doubt'. Look people can say up and down that the Blasphemy is 'Unbelief'

So you think people who do not even believe there's a God will have the answer for you, I find that a bit strange. Isn't that like asking a man what it's like to give birth to a baby.
How do you know God did not let you know, are you certain you did not miss what God was saying, are you positive it wasn't Satan trying to distract you?
John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the father's hand.
Did God remind you of these verses, were you listening for God to speak through His word.
It does seem strange to me that the Christians who would know what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is would be rejected by you. Yet those who do not believe and do not care whether you wind up in hell are the ones you are relying on, just beyond me.

Lets face it though Jesus said 'He who speaks a word against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven' - He didn't say 'He who dies in unbelief' he said 'Speaks a WORD' and that's what pisses me off as may Christians have managed to bend that literal phrase to mean something else when it is clear cut!

Do you really think we would waste our time on you if we thought that you had blasphemed the Holy Spirit, I can promise you we have better things to do than trying to convince a man doomed to hell, with no hope, that he is not. Seriously I can think of many things I would rather be doing than trying to fool a condemned man, it would be cruel on our part and I do not believe you think we are cruel.

@Everyone - I know deep down the bible is bull shit I have got 148 problems with Genesis and although some are really hard on the book its still scruitny that the Bible should beable to take like a breeze. Its just sometimes you do get some doubts that maybe I am still doomed. It does encourage me though to know that many people have committed this sin so at least I wont be in hell all by myself if the said place does exist.

I'm impressed, you would rather spend eternity in hell with your friends, those who do not care about your eternal destination, than to spend eternity with God who wants to bless you beyond belief. I don't know whether to call that loyalty or stupidity (not trying to put you down), but that is for you to decide.
If you have problems with the scripture why not bring some of them to Christians, I would be glad to help if you desire. I have no reason to lie to you, I'm only interested in helping, I've made the offer it's up to you.

Part of me thinks its funny as if God loves me that much sending me to hell will be satisfying for me as It will show quite plainly that he fucked up, I asked God for a visible sign and havent recieved one. If God existed like @Pineapple said then he cannot let me live with Uncertainty and fear. God would also have known the only way for me to leave this fear is by dis-belief. So it would appear either God does not care or that he does not exist.
In the last day I do have one card I *WILL* use! And I *WILL* say that to God that all my Athiesm is down to him as he was not there when I needed him most! Just like he wasent there for his own son!

When you meet the Father at judgement you will be on you knees begging for mercy, you want care about blaming God for anything because you will know it will not do any good. Seems to me you're mad at God because you were not listening, I know God and He would not refuse you an answer in this case, you need to re-evaluate your relationship with God before you go blaming Him for some ridiculous thought that Satan has placed in your head. It's all up to you, I've offered if you decide to waste your eternal life that will be on you and you alone.

GC

[Drich]

It is with who you think God to be, and because you can not reconcile your personal understanding of God with the description of God found in the bible.

[img]https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-

You do understand with out the bible we have no true understanding of Good and Evil right? Only what soceity defines as 'morality.' Which can mean giving aid to those in need to putting Jews in camps to roundup native Americans and putting them in camps, to slavery. All of those things have been deemed a soceital "moral obligation" at one point or another.

In short 'morality' is simply what a given generation are willing to accept as 'normal' behaivor. which again varies and has no real meaning nor is it tied to any real standard.

So to judge God by this crap standard is completely meaningless. It is as stupid as a death camp Nazi saying you are evil because you will not turn over a jew to be put to death... So who cares what the death camp Nazi judges as immoral. His standard is meaningless even by your version of morality. So too is your standard of 'Good and evil' when God is the final judge.

---

Your problem is not with Genesis. It is with who you think God to be, and because you can not reconcile your personal understanding of God with the description of God found in the bible, you assume the bible is in error. If you took the time to take an honest look at the God of the bible and build your understanding of God off of the bible alone you would not find error nor contradiction.

The problem is that none of us can read about the berserk psychopath of the OT or the manipulative sociopath of the NT and accept that such a being is the source of all that is good in the universe. Well, that and the obvious fictional nature of the whole thing.

Before you start trying to sell us on the benefits of worshiping a berserk psychopath/manipulative sociopath, you have to clear the hurdle of proving that your God is objectively real. How God is described is rather beside the point until you figure that one out.

In fact, I would suggest that an atheist 'understands' God according to the Bible better than anyone, for we understand that he doesn't exist except as a character on its pages.

Again you want 'proof?' then A/S/K for it as I did. Tell God you want proof so bad that even if it cost you your health you are willing to pay that price, and continue 'knocking' till God gives you what you want. Then you will have what you have been A/S/K for.

---

Not interested in your brand of morality nor am I interested in talking to someone about reality when they don't know the difference between perception and reality. Again, buy a dictionary.

see what i wrote to Spicolli above.

[themonkeyman]

Hey,

I am not saying this at all - You say that people here do not care for my eternal life but you have to first explain why there is no strong evidence of Jesus. I read the Bible like most Christians every day but I never *Got* it! Until I took a step back and looked at it objectively.

Alot of people here were Ex-Christians so you cannot say they do not care about my well being, If God is Just and fair he will understand completely my angle. He will see that I have studied hard on his faulty word and that I cannot love someone that 'MEN' paint as a tyrant.

Perhaps God is a loving person but the bible does not make him out to be loving at all - Quite the opposite. Understand these people who do not care about me - Well do you think perhaps they would be the first to give me a genuine answer with no Apologetic twisting to make it fit.

You say that you are surprised - Try saying that when members of your family die in Unbelief. I would rather give God the middle finger than to worship him knowing hes letting my loved ones roast in Hell. Just so that I can spend the rest of eternity worshiping him to tell him how great he is for being so 'Just??'.

When I meet the Father at Judgement I will be pointing the blame not at Jesus or the Holy Spirit but directly at him! Actually how do you know it wont do me any good to blame God? Sure if hes going to condemn me to hell why not give him the finger? You forget that throughout the OT god found sinners righteous! Take Noah and his family! were they the only non sinners in the entire world?

I think a God that created us and allowed us to fall from Grace has to take part of the blame. I never once asked him for Life and I never once told him I want to goto hell but I sure as heck dont want to goto heaven either. So why is it one or the other.

Free Will - That I make my own decisions

God != Free Will (e.g. Belief = Heaven / Non Belief = Hell) How is that free will? Its the same as having a gun pointed to your head and someone going you can either do as I say or I shoot you - But dont worry you have free will to make this decision. At that point although its free will its not true free will as the decision is either in favour of the person or not in which that same person can make their mind up on how to punish you for not taking their decision.

I was a Christian and this is where the problem was - I prayed to God and asked him for help! None was received - You can say that I didn't hear him or whatever but none was received.

---

Bang on the nail - @Drich and @GC I pose a challenge for both of you to prove your theory correct.

I felt I blasphemed because I said the 'Holy Spirit was like a Demon' in the context that they shared afew common attributes 'Spritual Beings / Both Control People / One is Good the Other is Evil (antonym)' So I challenge you to agree with me on that statement. If you dont believe it was blasphemy then you will have no problem.

If you think that its unbelief until death then you shouldent have a problem agreeing with the context of my sentance. I am not saying one is Equal to the other just that they both are similar on afew things.

If you cannot agree on that then I cannot follow your God, If you both agree that what I said there was Theologicially correct you may well be in with a Chance to winning me back! Over to you.

Thanks @Pineapple and @Captain Colostomy you folks speak sense

Agree with what? that the Holy spirit is like a demon because He possess people? What if your analogy is wrong?

The Holy Spirit is an intercessor, a link between you and the Father. not someone who makes you puke clam chower instead of pea soup.

Not to mention you still have a huge obstical to over come in my last rebuttal.

No where in the account of Mat or Mark did the Pharisees verbaly mention the Holy Spirit. Their blaspheme according to those two accounts were based on the Hearts that Christ judged to be blasphmous towards the Holy Spirit. The Pharisees did not even know what a 'Holy Spirit' was let alone 'take His name in vein.' (Which btw is what you think blaspheme is.) In this case according to the words and actions of Christ is not the case.

Drich that is not what I said and you are adding to it and thats not what I meant.

Question: Are there similarities?

Holy Spirit: Spiritual Entity / From God / (Possesses in a form of Guides/Controls - in a Good Way) / Has a desire for the human soul. Convicts us of our sinful nature and need to repent. Draws us closer to God.

Demon: Spiritual Entity / From God / (Posesses in a form of Guides/Controls - in a Bad Way) / Has a desire for the human soul.
Makes us commit sin and makes us think we have sinned where we have not. Draws us further from God.

When I said this passive remark when talking to myself out loud when working this through that is what I meant by the context! I did not mean that its evil or anything I meant it exactly as above.

Understand some Christians said

Its the Holy Spirit convicting you of your need to repent and making you feel guilty.
And Others Said
Its a Demon convincing you that you have sinned and making you feel guilty.

So when I said one was like the other I meant it as in (Well how the hell can it be both a Demon and the Holy Spirit) making me believe I committed this sin.

So surely for Christians to have a divided view point there would have to be common characteristics between both entities as if there are two view points they must be similar enough to confuse the both of them. Thats what I meant!

[Godscreated]

... @Drich and @GC I pose a challenge for both of you to prove your theory correct.

I felt I blasphemed because I said the 'Holy Spirit was like a Demon' in the context that they shared afew common attributes 'Spritual Beings / Both Control People / One is Good the Other is Evil (antonym)' So I challenge you to agree with me on that statement. If you dont believe it was blasphemy then you will have no problem.

If you think that its unbelief until death then you shouldent have a problem agreeing with the context of my sentance. I am not saying one is Equal to the other just that they both are similar on afew things.

If you cannot agree on that then I cannot follow your God, If you both agree that what I said there was Theologicially correct you may well be in with a Chance to winning me back! Over to you.

First of all I have no theory, what I have is what scripture says and I will not reject it to satisfy your self destructive attitude. The Holy Spirit has nothing in common with Satan, the Holy Spirit is God, taking part in the creation making Him part of the creator. Lucifer was created by God, so he is under God's will, that means the Holy Spirit has authority over Lucifer, ie. Satan.
You say Satan is a spiritual being, how do you know this? Neither have control over you, only what you allow, if you reject Christ exactly why would Satan need to waste time on you, however if you have accepted Christ, Satan has an agenda with you, right? The one thing I'll agree with you, the Holy Spirit is pure Good and Satan is pure evil, that's obvious to anyone who honestly reads scripture.
I do not have to agree with what's not true and I want, why you insist I do is beyond me. I'm not here to win you to anything, I want force you to believe whatever you do not want to, I will tell you, you are wrong when I see you are. What you say is not theologically correct, God may not strive with you till the day you die, He will give you more than enough chances to accept Christ, if you refuse enough times God may withdraw the Holy Spirit's conviction then you can say you've blasphemed the Holy Spirit. As long as you feel guilt the Holy Spirit is still working with you, the day you do not care may be the day it's to late. If the calling of the God who has authority over all of this universe is not enough for you then there is nothing I can do to convince you that grace was all over you and you rejected it, the rejection of the Holy Spirit is the blasphemy.

---

Hey,

I am not saying this at all - You say that people here do not care for my eternal life but you have to first explain why there is no strong evidence of Jesus. I read the Bible like most Christians every day but I never *Got* it! Until I took a step back and looked at it objectively.

Alot of people here were Ex-Christians so you cannot say they do not care about my well being, If God is Just and fair he will understand completely my angle. He will see that I have studied hard on his faulty word and that I cannot love someone that 'MEN' paint as a tyrant.

Perhaps God is a loving person but the bible does not make him out to be loving at all - Quite the opposite. Understand these people who do not care about me - Well do you think perhaps they would be the first to give me a genuine answer with no Apologetic twisting to make it fit.

You say that you are surprised - Try saying that when members of your family die in Unbelief. I would rather give God the middle finger than to worship him knowing hes letting my loved ones roast in Hell. Just so that I can spend the rest of eternity worshiping him to tell him how great he is for being so 'Just??'.

When I meet the Father at Judgement I will be pointing the blame not at Jesus or the Holy Spirit but directly at him! Actually how do you know it wont do me any good to blame God? Sure if hes going to condemn me to hell why not give him the finger? You forget that throughout the OT god found sinners righteous! Take Noah and his family! were they the only non sinners in the entire world?

I think a God that created us and allowed us to fall from Grace has to take part of the blame. I never once asked him for Life and I never once told him I want to goto hell but I sure as heck dont want to goto heaven either. So why is it one or the other.

Free Will - That I make my own decisions

God != Free Will (e.g. Belief = Heaven / Non Belief = Hell) How is that free will? Its the same as having a gun pointed to your head and someone going you can either do as I say or I shoot you - But dont worry you have free will to make this decision. At that point although its free will its not true free will as the decision is either in favour of the person or not in which that same person can make their mind up on how to punish you for not taking their decision.

I was a Christian and this is where the problem was - I prayed to God and asked him for help! None was received - You can say that I didn't hear him or whatever but none was received.

Did you ever ask the Holy Spirit to guide you when you read scriptures, did you try and study with others. Were you looking for an insurance policy to keep you out of hell, that's not becoming a Christian that's using God for your own purpose, that would be a reason you have failed at understanding scripture. Christians have the Holy Spirit to help in understanding scripture and if you do not use this help then it to could be rejecting the Holy Spirit, remember Christ said the Holy Spirit is our counselor and helper. I've given you the option of my help, if you want it PM me if not then you will be in the hands of God's judgement, if you do not seek Him anymore. Please consider carefully, because hell may be far worse than fire and brimstone, actually fire could be the more pleasant option. The guilt you show means the Holy Spirit is still working with you!

GC