John the Baptist

[DeistPaladin]

Christ's ministry officially started at the point of his baptism by John. However there were instances where Christ performed miricals and did his thing before He was baptized. The Water/wine wedding comes to mind.

The water/wind wedding was in John chapter 2, after the meeting with JtB which was in John chapter 1.

At the point of His baptism He was endowed with the Holy Spirit, ...

Wait! Does this mean you're a non-Trinitarian Christian? You sound like an Ebionite Christian, where Jesus was a normal guy until his baptism where he received (and formed a symbiotic relationship with) the Holy Spirit. If Jesus is one with the Father and Holy Spirit, that kind of precludes being later endowed with something he's already one with.

But perhaps I'm over-thinking your theological philosophy and how well you've thought it through?

[and if you're very quiet, you can just hear the "gee, ya think?" from all the other regulars here]

...but did not actually start ministering to actual people till sometime after He came back form his time in the desert. Which by then JtB was imprisioned.

Have you actually read the Gospel of John?

Jesus opened a rival baptizing ministry along the River Jordan before JtB was thrown into prison and he outdid the Baptist at his own gig.

[Minimalist]

Not the way the Mandaeans saw it!

[DeistPaladin]

Not the way the Mandaeans saw it!

They don't count. Clearly, they were crazy. I mean, their poster boy tells them "No, I'm not the Messiah. That guy over there, Jesus, he's the one you're looking for". And yet, they still revered him as the Messiah to this very day. It's almost like they wouldn't take his word for it or something. ...unless the Gospel account of him isn't true.

Just like the Docetics. They were devout Christians of the 1st century that ignored an obvious historical reality to make up fantasies about Jesus that he was only an apparition. As if there weren't relatives and neighbors of Jesus who could have set them straight. ...unless of course Jesus started out as parable and then an apparition and then a flesh-and-blood person.

[Minimalist]

"No, I'm not the Messiah.

Only the true Messiah denies his divinity.

I sentence you to watch Life of Brian again.

[Jackalope]

"No, I'm not the Messiah.

Only the true Messiah denies his divinity.

I sentence you to watch Life of Brian again.

But he's not the messiah. He's a very naughty boy

[Drich]

Again your making the claim, show me. Show me where they do not make the same claim.

If you can read - or claim to read that shit - and not understand what they fucking say then there is nothing I can say that will convince you. You are simply a hopeless drone of fucking jesus and you will never be anything more.

How about you define the parameters of your claim or are you afraid your being set up for a big fail?

[Minimalist]

It begins in Matty 3:13 and goes through 4:17. Why don't you take off your rosary-bead colored glasses and read your own bullshit.

[Tonus]

The simpler explanation is that it's a continuity gaffe.

That's because the editor of The Amazing Spider-Moses was too busy dealing with the big crossover between that character and The Fantastic Twelve to realize that the writer of The Invincible Iron Messiah hadn't read issues 252-255 of The Uncanny X-Caananites. It's shit like this that makes a comic-book editor's life so damned stressful.

So what the problem is?

Are you channeling Yoda?

[John V]

That loud snapping sound was my irony meter breaking.

Based on what follows, I think it was your bullshit generator clicking on.

Let me remind you of something: You are the believer. I'm just a non-believer.

No, you’re a critic. Note your name and tag-line.

Non-belief doesn't involve imagination and assumptions. It involves reading something and seeing if it makes sense or not.

You’re the one assuming that Jesus called Peter and Andrew in John 1. I’m the one going with the actual text.

But back to the topic, the Synoptic Gospels depict a ministry that starts with the baptism of JtB, he goes into the wilderness by himself (he had no disciples following him around at that point) for 40 days, comes back when JtB is in prison and begins to gather disciples and finally concludes with the "cleansing of the temple".

In John's Gospel, Jesus meets with (but is not baptized by) JtB, gathers disciples, makes wine at a wedding, never goes into the wilderness (since that story would make less sense for the Trinitarian Jesus that had developed by the time John was written), cleanses the temple as the kickoff of his ministry and then sets up a rival baptizing business next to JtB's franchise, all before JtB is ever thrown into prison.

I'm just reading the different stories as they are written. You are the one acting like a fanboy trying to come up with explanations for all the continuity gaffes.

Incorrect. You’re reading in words like “starts with,” “begins to gather,” and “kickoff” that aren’t in the texts. I’m sticking with the actual texts.

1 & 3 are concurrent, with 1 not mentioning the baptism. I.e., another argument from silence. ...Then 2. Then 4.

That really doesn't fit. After his baptism in the Synoptics, Jesus goes by himself "immediately" into the wilderness (no disciples following him yet) and then starts his ministry in Galilee once JtB is put into prison.

The time in the wilderness wasn’t in the original analysis. It would come between between the booming voice and the extra bit of ministry, due as you note to the “immediately” in the text.

1. Baptism.
2. Immediately went to the wilderness for 40 days.
3. JtB thrown in prison.
4. Jesus comes to Galilee preaching.

No, now we have a 5-point timeline to make:

1. Spirit like a dove (checked and didn’t see booming voice in John)
2. Immediately went to the wilderness for 40 days.
3. Ministry specific to john
4. JtB thrown in prison.
5. Jesus comes to Galilee preaching

Now in John Jesus meets JtB, the next two days gathers disciples and the following day attends a marriage.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
John 1:43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.
John 2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:

So timeline:
Day 1: Baptism
Day 2: Gather discples
Day 3: Gather more disciples
Day 4: Attend wedding

No room for ad hocs here. John specifies JC's activities for three days after his meeting with JtB. Mark et al say JC was immediately taken into the wilderness for 40 days.

OK, I’ll concede a conflict between Mark (not et al, the others don’t say immediately) and John on this.

And we haven't even addressed how Jesus gathered his disciples twice.

I’ve addressed it by noting your misunderstanding of the word disciple. Again, Jesus gathered disciples throughout his ministry. “Disciples” aren’t limited to the twelve apostles.

Did I mention God spoke to me and told me to tell you that It wants you to renounce Jesus and become a deist? Why wouldn't you believe me? Lack of any reason to think so? Argument from Silence!

You see, there's a reason Argument from Ignorance is a fallacy. Absence of evidence IS evidence of absence in cases where evidence should reasonably be expected to be found.

Already agreed, with key words bolded. You have yet to explain why John should include everything that’s in the synoptics.

Wouldn't think was legitimate? These were public miracles done in front of crowds. His fame spread to neighboring provinces. The rich and poor sought him out. Herod Antipas wanted to know if he was JtB (the guy he executed) resurrected. He caused a major disruption single-handidly at the Temple (twice by your account). The priest were so annoyed by him the met on freaking Passover Eve in an elaborate conspiracy to get rid of this guy.

But, if the chronicler thinks these things were legitimate, you dismiss his account as Christian mythology.

What does a guy have to do to get attention in your version of the ancient world?

We’re still discussing Jesus today, so he obviously got attention. You dismiss the accounts of what he did as mythology.

And yet, JtB gets more press from the 1st century historians without any miracles at all. And that's just one example I know of.

No, Jesus got more press than JtB, you just dismiss those records as mythology.

[Drich]

The water/wind wedding was in John chapter 2, after the meeting with JtB which was in John chapter 1.

Again Christ Ministry had started, In that He had received that Holy Spirit, and He picked a crew, but his time table to minister to People had not happened yet. As Per verse 4 of john 2:4 Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.”

Wait! Does this mean you're a non-Trinitarian Christian?

No.

You sound like an Ebionite Christian, where Jesus was a normal guy until his baptism where he received (and formed a symbiotic relationship with) the Holy Spirit. If Jesus is one with the Father and Holy Spirit, that kind of precludes being later endowed with something he's already one with.

Read what is written where Jesus Receives the Gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 1:32 And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”\

Mat 3:
16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He[c] saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

Luke 3:
21 When all the people were baptized, it came to pass that Jesus also was baptized; and while He prayed, the heaven was opened. 22 And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”

Mark 1:
9 It came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And immediately, coming up from[d] the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove. 11 Then a voice came from heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

With all four accounts in agreement it can be said with out doubt that Christ received The Gift of the Holy Spirit upon His baptism.

How we look to establish Christ's Miricals were performed through the Power of the Holy Spirit.

We start With Mark 3:
20 Then the multitude came together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. 21 But when His own people heard about this, they went out to lay hold of Him, for they said, “He is out of His mind.”

22 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, “He has Beelzebub,” and, “By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons.”
23 So He called them to Himself and said to them in parables: “How can Satan cast out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan has risen up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but has an end. 27 No one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. And then he will plunder his house. 28 “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; 29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”— 30 because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.”

Christ's work in casting out demons was attributed to the Power of the Holy Spirit. As witnessed by the passage above. This is further highlited when the scribes said He used the power of a Satan to cast out demons. How did He respond? Blaspheme against Himself would be forgiven, but blaspheme against the Holy Spirit would never be forgiven.

Why would Christ need to say this if He were the sole source of the excorsism? The Scribes did not use the Holy Spirit's name in any way shape or form. They probably was not even away of the Holy Spirit at that point. Verse 30 explains 'why.' Because they said He had an unclean Spirit.' and it was by this unclean spirit that He did His works. Christ's response said that was blaspheme, leaving the oppsite to be true. (That He did His works according to the Holy Spirit.)

But perhaps I'm over-thinking your theological philosophy and how well you've thought it through?

Until you questioned it just now I never put together a defense of what I believed. As you can see though what I believe is well documented in scripture. That said feel free to lable me anyway you like, because no matter what you may think I am a bible believeing Christian, and it is to the bible I pledge my algeiance and not to some religious title given by man.

Have you actually read the Gospel of John?

a couple of times.

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The simpler explanation is that it's a continuity gaffe.

That's because the editor of The Amazing Spider-Moses was too busy dealing with the big crossover between that character and The Fantastic Twelve to realize that the writer of The Invincible Iron Messiah hadn't read issues 252-255 of The Uncanny X-Caananites. It's shit like this that makes a comic-book editor's life so damned stressful.

So what the problem is?

Are you channeling Yoda?

Actually Martin Lawrance.

I tried to post a youtube link but couldn't. I don't know what the problem is with dat.

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It begins in Matty 3:13 and goes through 4:17. Why don't you take off your rosary-bead colored glasses and read your own bullshit.

I read mat and john and still don't see it..