(September 7, 2013 at 3:00 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: I read that as just another continuity gaffe that one would expect when a work of fiction of expanded upon by different authors.

Of course you did, but that's not at all a necessary conclusion from the texts.

Quote:Incorrect. JtB never baptizes Jesus in John's version of the Gospel.

That's a non sequitur. Reversing the two doesn't necessitate JtB baptizing Jesus in gJohn.

Quote:Red Herring fallacy. I said "discipleship".

Regardless, have the problem that you haven't shown Jesus calling Peter and Andrew in gJohn.

Quote:As usual, Christian apologists overwork the Argument from Silence fallacy to cover for their own Argument from Ignorance and Bare Assertion fallacies.

Argument from Silence is only a fallacy in cases where it is plausible there might be no reports or evidence to be found. Otherwise, Argument from Ignorance would not be a fallacy.

As usual, critics try to cover their argument from silence fallacy with a special pleading fallacy.

Quote:This is why it's reasonably to doubt that Jesus fed thousands with magically generated food, healed countless sick people, brought back the dead on two occasions and performed other public miracles in front of witnesses simply on the grounds that there's no historical record of any of these events outside Christian mythology.

Tautology. You could lump any record of the events into "Christian mythology."

Quote:Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.

What kind of an idiot believes such utter fucking nonsense?

(September 7, 2013 at 5:08 pm)John V Wrote: Of course you did, but that's not at all a necessary conclusion from the texts.

But it's the simplest explanation. The alternative is to tie yourself into knots trying to make them all fit with one another. See my "ad hoc hypothesis" description above.

Quote:That's a non sequitur. Reversing the two doesn't necessitate JtB baptizing Jesus in gJohn.

You know, if I didn't know any better, I'd say you were defending the apology that you refused to defend earlier.

That said, and you're welcome to decide you've changed your mind, can you map out the 4 point timeline? I think I may just be confused as to the order of events you're describing.

Quote:Regardless, have the problem that you haven't shown Jesus calling Peter and Andrew in gJohn.

The passage refers to Peter and Andrew calling Jesus the Christ and following him. The later passage in John chapter 3 that I offered described where Jesus and his disciples went. In other words, Jesus had gathered his disciples, an event which doesn't happen in the Syoptics until after JtB was put into prison.

Quote:As usual, critics try to cover their argument from silence fallacy with a special pleading fallacy.

My use of the absence of evidence was not fallacious, for reasons already offered. Much as people of faith try to claim otherwise, in some cases absence of evidence IS evidence of absence.

Otherwise, as I've said, Argument from Ignorance wouldn't be a fallacy.

By the way, God spoke to me this morning and said you should renounce Jesus and become a deist. You can't cite the lack of evidence for my claim as a reason not to believe me because that would be Argument from Silence.

And where did I use Special Pleading?

Quote:Tautology. You could lump any record of the events into "Christian mythology."

Not necessarily. Non Christians could have reported on the miracles as "sorcery" or "unexplained events".

For that matter, non Christians could have failed to notice the miracles but still reported on the famous and controversial ministry of Jesus which had spread to all the colonies like wildfire and captured the attention of the local priests and rulers.

They could have. They didn't. Clearly, if Jesus existed, he got no one's attention outside his small band.

(September 6, 2013 at 12:50 pm)Minimalist Wrote: John 3

Quote:22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized. 24 (This was before John was put in prison.) 25 An argument developed between some of John’s disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing. 26 They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—look, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him.”

Seriously, Drippy. Haven't you read this shit at all?

So what the problem is?

Christ's ministry officially started at the point of his baptism by John. However there were instances where Christ performed miricals and did his thing before He was baptized. The Water/wine wedding comes to mind.

At the point of His baptism He was endowed with the Holy Spirit, but did not actually start ministering to actual people till sometime after He came back form his time in the desert. Which by then JtB was imprisioned.

So again I do not see the problem you apparently do. Can you explain it a little better.

I don't care if jesus shit in his loin cloth - the others tell a different story than john.

You are trying to enter facts which are not in evidence.

Kudos for Holy Shit in the loincloth.

(September 8, 2013 at 2:35 am)Minimalist Wrote: I don't care if jesus shit in his loin cloth - the others tell a different story than john.

You are trying to enter facts which are not in evidence.

Again your making the claim, show me. Show me where they do not make the same claim.

(September 7, 2013 at 6:46 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: But it's the simplest explanation. The alternative is to tie yourself into knots trying to make them all fit with one another. See my "ad hoc hypothesis" description above.

The texts themselves fit with one another just fine. The only problems you've noted were created by your own imagination and assumptions.

Quote:You know, if I didn't know any better, I'd say you were defending the apology that you refused to defend earlier.

That said, and you're welcome to decide you've changed your mind, can you map out the 4 point timeline? I think I may just be confused as to the order of events you're describing.

Yes, you were confused, and I already suggested you switch 2 & 3. Let's take a closer look.

You had it:
1. John's Gospel version of Jesus' meeting with JtB.
2. Extra bit of ministry not reported in the Synoptics.
3. Jesus gets baptized per Synoptic Gospel accounts.
4. JtB is put into prison.

I assume your point 1 is referring to John 1:29-34. Correct me if this is wrong. In that case:

1 & 3 are concurrent, with 1 not mentioning the baptism. I.e., another argument from silence.

Then 2. Then 4.

Quote:The passage refers to Peter and Andrew calling Jesus the Christ and following him. The later passage in John chapter 3 that I offered described where Jesus and his disciples went. In other words, Jesus had gathered his disciples, an event which doesn't happen in the Syoptics until after JtB was put into prison. [./quote]
Again, disciples by itself does not mean the twelve apostles. It's incorrect to say that Jesus had gathered his disciples. He gathered disciples throughout his ministry, and lost some, too.

[quote]My use of the absence of evidence was not fallacious, for reasons already offered.

You mean for special pleadings already offered.

Quote:Much as people of faith try to claim otherwise, in some cases absence of evidence IS evidence of absence.

Sure - when we would have good reason to expect to see something. You haven't given good reason that we should expect John to include everything that's in the synoptics.

Quote:Not necessarily. Non Christians could have reported on the miracles as "sorcery" or "unexplained events".

For that matter, non Christians could have failed to notice the miracles but still reported on the famous and controversial ministry of Jesus which had spread to all the colonies like wildfire and captured the attention of the local priests and rulers.

They could have. They didn't. Clearly, if Jesus existed, he got no one's attention outside his small band.

People "could" do a lot of things. Writing was not as easy and cheap then as it is now. There's no compelling reason to expect people to take the time and effort to record something they didn't think was legitimate, and then for others to copy those accounts for centuries.

(September 8, 2013 at 6:28 am)John V Wrote: The texts themselves fit with one another just fine. The only problems you've noted were created by your own imagination and assumptions.

That loud snapping sound was my irony meter breaking.

Let me remind you of something: You are the believer. I'm just a non-believer. Non-belief doesn't involve imagination and assumptions. It involves reading something and seeing if it makes sense or not.

Faith-based belief, by definition, involves imagination and assumptions. Faith is believing in something without evidence and often against all evidence. To do that, you have to imagine something is true and assume that it is true.

Skepticism does not involve any imagination or assumptions. You show me compelling evidence that your religion is true and I'll stop doubting it. Of course, you can't because that would mean you wouldn't need faith.

But back to the topic, the Synoptic Gospels depict a ministry that starts with the baptism of JtB, he goes into the wilderness by himself (he had no disciples following him around at that point) for 40 days, comes back when JtB is in prison and begins to gather disciples and finally concludes with the "cleansing of the temple".

In John's Gospel, Jesus meets with (but is not baptized by) JtB, gathers disciples, makes wine at a wedding, never goes into the wilderness (since that story would make less sense for the Trinitarian Jesus that had developed by the time John was written), cleanses the temple as the kickoff of his ministry and then sets up a rival baptizing business next to JtB's franchise, all before JtB is ever thrown into prison.

I'm just reading the different stories as they are written. You are the one acting like a fanboy trying to come up with explanations for all the continuity gaffes.

Quote:1 & 3 are concurrent, with 1 not mentioning the baptism. I.e., another argument from silence. ...Then 2. Then 4.

That really doesn't fit. After his baptism in the Synoptics, Jesus goes by himself "immediately" into the wilderness (no disciples following him yet) and then starts his ministry in Galilee once JtB is put into prison.

Quote:Mark 1:12 And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness. And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him. Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

So timeline:
1. Baptism.
2. Immediately went to the wilderness for 40 days.
3. JtB thrown in prison.
4. Jesus comes to Galilee preaching.

Now in John Jesus meets JtB, the next two days gathers disciples and the following day attends a marriage.

Quote:John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
John 1:43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.
John 2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:

So timeline:
Day 1: Baptism
Day 2: Gather discples
Day 3: Gather more disciples
Day 4: Attend wedding

No room for ad hocs here. John specifies JC's activities for three days after his meeting with JtB. Mark et al say JC was immediately taken into the wilderness for 40 days.

And we haven't even addressed how Jesus gathered his disciples twice.

And I have more reasons than silence for noting that John's JtB never baptizes Jesus at all. There's a progression with each successive Gospel where the whole baptism seems theologically awkward. In order:

Mark: JtB puts himself down but still baptizes Jesus
Matt: JtB objects, wondering why he should baptize Jesus when it should be the other way around.
John: Ditch the whole awkward thing and just have JtB bare witness.

Also:

Synoptics: JtB has to first get out of the way.
John: JC has his ministry going long before JtB is put into prison and, just for good measure, he opens a rival baptizing clinic at another station by the river Jordan and, just for good measure...

Quote:John 4:1-2 When therefore the LORD knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

Jesus outdid JtB at his own gig while delegating that menial work to his flunkies. What a guy!

The tale got better with the telling. The progression we see in subsequent Gospels is exactly what we'd expect to see from progressing folklore.

Quote:Again, disciples by itself does not mean the twelve apostles. It's incorrect to say that Jesus had gathered his disciples. He gathered disciples throughout his ministry, and lost some, too.

He was by himself in the Wilderness immediately after his Synoptic meeting with JtB, ministered by angels and tempted by Satan. Only after this did the Synoptic Jesus get humans to follow him everywhere.

Quote:You mean for special pleadings already offered.

One of us is special pleading alright.

Did I mention God spoke to me and told me to tell you that It wants you to renounce Jesus and become a deist? Why wouldn't you believe me? Lack of any reason to think so? Argument from Silence!

You see, there's a reason Argument from Ignorance is a fallacy. Absence of evidence IS evidence of absence in cases where evidence should reasonably be expected to be found.

Quote:People "could" do a lot of things. Writing was not as easy and cheap then as it is now. There's no compelling reason to expect people to take the time and effort to record something they didn't think was legitimate, and then for others to copy those accounts for centuries.

Wouldn't think was legitimate? These were public miracles done in front of crowds. His fame spread to neighboring provinces. The rich and poor sought him out. Herod Antipas wanted to know if he was JtB (the guy he executed) resurrected. He caused a major disruption single-handidly at the Temple (twice by your account). The priest were so annoyed by him the met on freaking Passover Eve in an elaborate conspiracy to get rid of this guy.

What does a guy have to do to get attention in your version of the ancient world?

And yet, JtB gets more press from the 1st century historians without any miracles at all. And that's just one example I know of.

The best your boy got was an oblique 2nd century mention in the Annals of Tacitus, so oblique he didn't even get mentioned by name.

(September 8, 2013 at 3:16 am)Drich Wrote:

(September 8, 2013 at 2:35 am)Minimalist Wrote: I don't care if jesus shit in his loin cloth - the others tell a different story than john.

You are trying to enter facts which are not in evidence.

Again your making the claim, show me. Show me where they do not make the same claim.

If you can read - or claim to read that shit - and not understand what they fucking say then there is nothing I can say that will convince you. You are simply a hopeless drone of fucking jesus and you will never be anything more.