Discussions with Zen

[KichigaiNeko]

We have a thing we have named "Wine O'Clock" this is the time of day we discuss various thoughts/ revelations, problems/ solutions to our lives and thought processes..... topics range all over the shop but some new and interesting information is often brought forward... I may not necessarily like it but THAT is besides the point.



Thought bubbles/ personal revelations from the antipodes – for your consideration
Item one
Humans (VERY generally speaking) have become complacent and intellectually lazy. One could argue that this has been the case throughout human history.
Take religion…. As an example; here is where we have all the questions pre-digested and resolved so that the sheeple can go about being organic robots for some master or imagined other.

Item two
Our global/ local economies; are just an idea construct. As Zen has stated “take away people and money dies” (my paraphrasing) To wit, if people no longer existed then the whole concept of money also no longer exists- take away people and a car will still exist (not necessarily performing its original function) but it will STILL exist
So… what are those with money so worried about? Loosing an ideology?
Evolution (as we define it) will also continue to exist sans people. So what are the religious so worried about?

Item three
Gravity. JUST wtf IS it? We are able to observe its effects but just what is it?
Must add here that this little gem led us into Matter/ Anti-Matter, Fusion as opposed to Fission and how a Matter/Anti-Matter reaction would trump them both!

Item four
Recycling, Solar Power-residential, local producers of food and the lessening the overall fossil-fuel impact/pollution to our environment.

Here the “Inconvenient Truth” is the fact that many current industries will die and humans will adapt to other forms of energy usage. Here in Australia the “grass-roots” have embraced recycling and Solar power (residential) to the point that the authorities are unable to keep up and are no longer funding such initiatives. We personally have our own “home garden” and grow many foods that are often too expensive (read take a lot of fossil fuels) or are “out of season” from our local growers/ supermarket suppliers.
Rachael has commented an excellent article regarding the Tesla Company and its forays into electric vehicles, the conclusion…truth in journalism no longer exists.

Item five
The Media - “he who controls the media, control the people” Is this a true statement? Seems to be if you are a sheeple
I (like many others) follow links and strive to get the REAL information.

The question here is do you trust what is “Fed” to you? Or will you look a bit deeper to get the REAL story? Another question is...are we trusting less and less of our organisations to actually DO what they say they are doing?

[pocaracas]

We have a thing we have named "Wine O'Clock" this is the time of day we discuss various thoughts/ revelations, problems/ solutions to our lives and thought processes..... topics range all over the shop but some new and interesting information is often brought forward... I may not necessarily like it but THAT is besides the point.

Awesome concept... don't know how I could apply it at my home... maybe when the kids have grown and left...

Item one
Humans (VERY generally speaking) have become complacent and intellectually lazy. One could argue that this has been the case throughout human history.
Take religion…. As an example; here is where we have all the questions pre-digested and resolved so that the sheeple can go about being organic robots for some master or imagined other.

"have become", or "have always been, for the most part"?

Item two
Our global/ local economies; are just an idea construct. As Zen has stated “take away people and money dies” (my paraphrasing) To wit, if people no longer existed then the whole concept of money also no longer exists- take away people and a car will still exist (not necessarily performing its original function) but it will STILL exist
So… what are those with money so worried about? Loosing an ideology?
Evolution (as we define it) will also continue to exist sans people. So what are the religious so worried about?

??
Take away the people and the wealth that money represents will mostly go away, yes... but some will still be around.
A friend of mine once drew my attention to the fact that the value money has is mostly psychological. Money is valued because people perceive that money as something they can use to exchange for other things.
Not all money is equal.... would you accept monopoly money in exchange for your hard earned carrots?

Item three
Gravity. JUST wtf IS it? We are able to observe its effects but just what is it?
Must add here that this little gem led us into Matter/ Anti-Matter, Fusion as opposed to Fission and how a Matter/Anti-Matter reaction would trump them both!

Fission and fusion rely on heating the material around with fast neutrons.

Matter/anti-matter annihilate and release only photons... in opposing directions! Look into solar sails and you'll probably come to the conclusion that photons don't give off that much power... although you should be getting the full energy of the two particles that annihilated.

There's a huge plus: no waste! everything gets turned to light.

And there's a huge con: The trouble* of handling anti-matter...

*trouble, as in amount of energy required.

Item four
Recycling, Solar Power-residential, local producers of food and the lessening the overall fossil-fuel impact/pollution to our environment.

Here the “Inconvenient Truth” is the fact that many current industries will die and humans will adapt to other forms of energy usage. Here in Australia the “grass-roots” have embraced recycling and Solar power (residential) to the point that the authorities are unable to keep up and are no longer funding such initiatives. We personally have our own “home garden” and grow many foods that are often too expensive (read take a lot of fossil fuels) or are “out of season” from our local growers/ supermarket suppliers.
Rachael has commented an excellent article regarding the Tesla Company and its forays into electric vehicles, the conclusion…truth in journalism no longer exists.

Living in an apartment, "home garden" is something that goes missing, we do have a few pots with flowers and stuff, but nothing we can live of.
Perhaps, some day...

Item five
The Media - “he who controls the media, control the people” Is this a true statement? Seems to be if you are a sheeple
I (like many others) follow links and strive to get the REAL information.

The question here is do you trust what is “Fed” to you? Or will you look a bit deeper to get the REAL story? Another question is...are we trusting less and less of our organisations to actually DO what they say they are doing?

When reasonable, I eat it... when it sounds like too much of a stretch, I try to dig deeper... take Syria... it's starting to look an awful lot like Iraq.
On the other hand, news like this, sound reasonable:
http://rt.com/news/radiation-tepco-fukushima-leak-637/

[KichigaiNeko]

Awesome concept... don't know how I could apply it at my home... maybe when the kids have grown and left...

I would suggest you implement it NOW. Mum and Dad NEED time (say about 30 mins whilst the kiddies are watching their favourite TV program) to have a discussion. Besides it would be a good influence on them (the kiddies) that males and females actually TALK to each other rather than being servants to a brood of kiddies.

---

"have become", or "have always been, for the most part"?

In this day and age I am being generous and leaning towards "become"

---

Take away the people and the wealth that money represents will mostly go away, yes... but some will still be around.
A friend of mine once drew my attention to the fact that the value money has is mostly psychological. Money is valued because people perceive that money as something they can use to exchange for other things.
Not all money is equal.... would you accept monopoly money in exchange for your hard earned carrots?

That's the whole point. You ARE accepting monopoly $$ for you hard earned carrots. Your friend is correct (in my thinking) that $$ are psychological-idea construct and the only system we function within...take that away (people and structure) and what do you have?

---

Fission and fusion rely on heating the material around with fast neutrons.

Matter/anti-matter annihilate and release only photons... in opposing directions! Look into solar sails and you'll probably come to the conclusion that photons don't give off that much power... although you should be getting the full energy of the two particles that annihilated.

There's a huge plus: no waste! everything gets turned to light.

And there's a huge con: The trouble* of handling anti-matter...

*trouble, as in amount of energy required.

This is Zen's area of interest (as I stated) apparently it is more to do with $cost$ than anything else

---

Living in an apartment, "home garden" is something that goes missing, we do have a few pots with flowers and stuff, but nothing we can live of.
Perhaps, some day...

Even "apartment living" can yield results so think about it? Your recycling, use of electricity, purchasing locally grown food and container gardening (if you have a balcony) all help. Heck, if people can grow hydroponic marijuana why not food?

---

When reasonable, I eat it... when it sounds like too much of a stretch, I try to dig deeper... take Syria... it's starting to look an awful lot like Iraq.
On the other hand, news like this, sound reasonable:
http://rt.com/news/radiation-tepco-fukushima-leak-637/

It does sound reasonable. And yes Syria is like Iraq...it's all about the oil.

[pocaracas]

Awesome concept... don't know how I could apply it at my home... maybe when the kids have grown and left...

I would suggest you implement it NOW. Mum and Dad NEED time (say about 30 mins whilst the kiddies are watching their favourite TV program) to have a discussion. Besides it would be a good influence on them (the kiddies) that males and females actually TALK to each other rather than being servants to a brood of kiddies.

---

"have become", or "have always been, for the most part"?

In this day and age I am being generous and leaning towards "become"

HAHA... I still lean towards the always have been... with a few striving for something better. In relative terms, the amount of people who strive now is the same as then.... but, since there are much more people today, in absolute terms, there are more people working to advance human knowledge.

---

Take away the people and the wealth that money represents will mostly go away, yes... but some will still be around.
A friend of mine once drew my attention to the fact that the value money has is mostly psychological. Money is valued because people perceive that money as something they can use to exchange for other things.
Not all money is equal.... would you accept monopoly money in exchange for your hard earned carrots?

That's the whole point. You ARE accepting monopoly $$ for you hard earned carrots. Your friend is correct (in my thinking) that $$ are psychological-idea construct and the only system we function within...take that away (people and structure) and what do you have?

You have direct trade, which sucks.
Or each person does everything for himself, which sucks.
I understand the need for a common asset/currency which intermediates the trade of goods and services. What I don't understand is the financial market, where money generates money, no goods nor services required.

---

Fission and fusion rely on heating the material around with fast neutrons.

Matter/anti-matter annihilate and release only photons... in opposing directions! Look into solar sails and you'll probably come to the conclusion that photons don't give off that much power... although you should be getting the full energy of the two particles that annihilated.

There's a huge plus: no waste! everything gets turned to light.

And there's a huge con: The trouble* of handling anti-matter...

*trouble, as in amount of energy required.

This is Zen's area of interest (as I stated) apparently it is more to do with $cost$ than anything else

Fusion is becomes cost-effective, so more and more research money is being spent in it... under the promise of cleaner and long-lasting nuclear power.
In some 15 years we should have some good news from all that research... until then... we wait.

---

Living in an apartment, "home garden" is something that goes missing, we do have a few pots with flowers and stuff, but nothing we can live of.
Perhaps, some day...

Even "apartment living" can yield results so think about it? Your recycling, use of electricity, purchasing locally grown food and container gardening (if you have a balcony) all help. Heck, if people can grow hydroponic marijuana why not food?

Aye, recycling, local goods, efficient electrical and gas devices... as well as rational use of water... those are default on people of my generation... I think.
The problem is, what else?!

Growing leaves for smoking isn't exactly the same as growing a lettuce, or a cabbage.

---

When reasonable, I eat it... when it sounds like too much of a stretch, I try to dig deeper... take Syria... it's starting to look an awful lot like Iraq.
On the other hand, news like this, sound reasonable:
http://rt.com/news/radiation-tepco-fukushima-leak-637/

It does sound reasonable. And yes Syria is like Iraq...it's all about the oil.

Follow the money!

[KichigaiNeko]

What I don't understand is the financial market, where money generates money, no goods nor services required.

This is the "illusionary" part I also come up against.

[KichigaiNeko]

Just in.....

Courtesy Michael Sherlock - Author

Two Victims of Protestant Insanity – The Stories of Matthew Hamont and Michael Servetus. By Michael Sherlock: Author

Matthew Hamont: Murdered For Christ and Country

Matthew Hamont, a loving husband and father, was burnt at the stake by the Church of England for the crime of holding an opinion of God that was outside the narrow purview of both the Anglican Church and Christianity, in general.(1)

He was brutally tortured and snuffed out by the icy and intolerant flames of a powerful church for the crime of deism.

Deists believe in a creator, yet they see no need for organized religion, a position which in Matthew Hamont’s time, would have been very threatening to malign faith wielders and monarchists, who stood to forfeit immeasurable wealth and power, should Deism, a slightly less credulous form of belief, win the minds of the masses. The Deist’s God is one who designed the universe and set the wheels in motion, so to speak, then stepped back to let the universe govern itself. Deists view miracles and prophecies as being the invention of human imagination and religious scriptures, like the New Testament and the Qur’an, for example, as being little more than manmade fables.

In April of 1579, Matthew Hamont was taken from his wife and his only son, Erasmus and dragged before the Ecclesiastical Court of the Church of England, by the bishop of Norwich, Edmund Freke.(2) The charges laid against Matthew were:

• Denying Christ as the Saviour of mankind,
• Accusing Jesus of being nothing more than a Jewish sinner,
• Disbelieving in the existence of the Holy Ghost and;
• Asserting that the Gospels are fictitious fables. (3)

For these “crimes,” Hamont was handed over to the Sheriff, at which time further charges of blasphemy were laid against him for uttering unpleasantries about the Queen of England, who is believed by many to sit on the divinely appointed throne until Christ’s return. For this additional crime, he had his ears cut off before being set on fire, the sentence of his initial crimes. (4)

One cannot begin to imagine the horrendous pain, the torment and the excruciating agony Matthew must have suffered in his final hours. Having his ears violently hacked off, feeling and hearing, if indeed he could still hear, his skin sizzle, as his nerves went into overdrive, sending a tsunami of excruciating messages to his pain receptors, until he could feel no more. Nor could one begin to fathom the emotional heartache and anguish of his beloved wife and only son, who not only suffered the unspeakable loss of a husband and father, but must have also felt the social effects and stigma of being associated with a convicted heretic. And for what!? Because those whose minds are so fixated, so certain, so overwhelmed by their own ideas that they feel and believe they have the right to snuff out human lives with such callous disregard for the victim and their family? What kind of insanity is this that turns people into monsters? To answer in two words, religious beliefs!

Michael Servetus: Calvin’s Fury!

If we were to use a single word to describe Michael Servetus, it would have to be, polymath. He was a mathematician, philosopher, astronomer, astrologer, theologian and a physician, among other things. (5) Despite his intelligence, he was a devout Christian, one who despised the pomp of the papacy and so was drawn to the Reformation. On at least two occasions he narrowly escaped the flames of the Catholic Inquisition and became despised by Lutherans, Calvinists and Catholics alike. Members of these various sects were constantly at war with each other over ridiculous theological/superstitious differences, however, as much as they each relished the idea of burning members of their rival sects, they harbored nothing less than a frenzied desire to see Michael Servetus tortured and finally scrubbed from this planet.

Michael’s three chief heresies were that he believed the trinity to be false, which, in Servetus’ day, was a belief that could have you murdered by any of the Christian churches; he did not believe in infant baptism, again a fatal belief to hold in such a dark and depraved age and finally, he saw it as absurd that a person be saved by faith alone, or that faith naturally produces good works.(6) Officially, these were the reasons Calvin put Servetus to death for, however, if one examines the correspondences between Servetus and Calvin, another, even more insidious reason for this crime comes to light.

In the beginning, Servetus and Calvin’s letters to one another were moderate and cordial however, as time went on more and more differences began to emerge between the Christianity of Calvin and his intellectual superior, Servetus. In the end, Calvin tried to put a stop to their correspondence by sending Michael his seminal and authoritative work entitled, ‘The Institutes of the Christian Religion,’ which he thought would make this heretic bow down before the “supreme intellect” of Calvin. It did not. In fact, Michael sent it back heavily annotated, drawing attention to errors of fact, logic and theology, by employing Christian Scripture and the works of the ante-Nicene fathers, to demonstrate where and how Calvin’s central tenants were flawed. (7) Naturally, Calvin was infuriated wanting Servetus dead. In a letter to one of his friends, Calvin wrote:

"There is hardly a page that is not defiled with his vomit." (8)

Following this event, Servetus sent other correspondences to Calvin and in one asked to come and sit with him to discuss their differences. Upon receiving this request, Calvin wrote to his chief Lieutenant, Farel:

"Servetus lately wrote to me and sent me with his letters a great volume of his ravings, saying that I would see there things stupendous and unheard of until now. He offers to come here if I approve, but I will not pledge my faith to him. For should he come, if my authority avails, I should never suffer him to go away alive." (9)

Calvin’s authority availed and he didn’t suffer Michael to leave Geneva alive, for after a speech given by Calvin in Geneva, one in which Michael was in attendance, Calvin had him arrested and put to death by the jealous and prideful flames of an intellectually dominated zealot.

The twentieth century church historian, Carl Theophilus Odhner, paints a rather vivid picture for us of the events accompanying Michael Servetus’ murder, from contemporary accounts:

"When he came in sight of the fatal pile, the wretched Servetus prostrated himself on the ground, and for a while was absorbed in prayer. Rising and advancing a few steps, he found himself in the hand of the executioner, by whom he was made to sit on a block, his feet just reaching the ground. His body was then bound to the stake behind him by several turns of an iron chain, whilst his neck was secured in like manner by the coils of a hempen rope. His two books,—the one in manuscript sent to Calvin in confidence six or eight years before for his strictures, and a copy of the one lately printed in Vienne,—were then fastened to his waist, and his head was encircled in mockery with a chaplet of straw and green twigs bestrewed with brimstone. The deadly torch was then applied to the faggots and flashed in his face; and the brimstone catching, and the flames rising, wrung from the victim such a cry of anguish as struck terror into the surrounding crowd. After this he was bravely silent; but the wood being purposely green, although the people aided the executioner in heaping the faggots upon him, a long half-hour elapsed before he ceased to show signs of life and suffering. Immediately before giving up the ghost, with a last expiring effort he cried aloud: “Jesus, Thou Son of the Eternal God, have compassion upon me!” All was then hushed save the hissing and crackling of the green wood; and by-and-by there remained no more of what had been Michael Servetus but a charred and blackened trunk and a handful of ashes." (10)

Had Servetus and Hamont’s murders been the only ones we could lay at the feet of the Protestants, there would still be ample reason to condemn their belief-infatuated insanity, however, they were not and for proof of this we need only read the records of the Protestant London Missionary Society, who lusted for Christ so desperately that their depravity in countries like Tahiti, New Zealand and Australia, saw no bounds. We may even sight examples such as the widespread burning and drowning of young women accused of being witches by the protestant puritans in both Europe and America or the brutal and inhumane African slave trade and the list of crimes goes on and on ad infinitum.

Anglican Rev. William Dean Inge adds:

"The earlier Protestantism, in its chief forms, was certainly intolerant. Some of the minor sects pleaded for liberty of conscience, but minor sects always plead for liberty of conscience until they become major sects. On what principle were the Anabaptists, a body of Christian Socialists, persecuted by Lutherans and Calvinists? Why were the absolutely harmless Quakers maltreated both in Europe and in America, where four of them actually suffered death? Why did Calvin cause the Spaniard Servetus to be burnt alive? Why, above all, were many thousands of "witches" executed in Protestant countries?" (11)

Surely, even if one innocent person has died as a result of Jesus’ teachings, or those whom Jesus allegedly chose to represent him here on earth, then Jesus should be held to be vicariously liable for such crimes. The tragic truth of the matter is that it has not only been one innocent person who has suffered and died as a result of both the Catholic and Protestant churches, but a vast multitude.

Thus, it is argued, that if Jesus did in fact exist and reaching further into credulity, he was the son of God, then he is either all-loving and impotent or all-knowing and apathetic. In either case, neither this Jewish god-man, nor his representatives on earth are worthy of our trust and devotion.

As the ancient Jewish historian Philo noted regarding Epicurus’ problem relating to the quandary of an allegedly all-powerful and all loving God, who is either unable or unwilling to prevent evil and suffering, said:

"Epicurus’ old questions are yet unanswered. Is he (God) willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?" (12)

References

1. Jeremy Collier, M.A. An Ecclesiastical History of Great Britain. Vol. 6. William Straker. (1811). pp. 608-609.
2. Alexander Gordon. Dictionary of National Biography. Vol. 24. (1895-1900).
3. Robert Wallace. Antitrinitarian Biography. Vol. 2. E.T. Whitfield. (1850). Pp. 364-365.
4. Ibid.
5. Carl Theophilus Odhner. Michael Servetus: His Life and Teachings. J.B. Lippincott Company. (1910). p. 19.
6. Ibid. p. 58-59.
7. Ibid. p. 21.
8. R. Willis, M.D. Servetus and Calvin: A Study of an Important Epoch in the History of the Reformation. Henry S. King and Co. (1877). p. 168.
9. Carl Theophilus Odhner. Michael Servetus: His Life and Teachings. J.B. Lippincott Company. (1910). p. 22.
10. Ibid. pp. 32-33.
11. W.R. Inge. (Dean of St. Paul’s Cathedral) Christian Ethics and Modern Problems. G.P. Putnam’s Sons. (1930). p. 189.
12. Jordan Howard Sobel. Logic and Theism: Arguments For and Against Belief in God. Cambridge University Press. (2004). p. 436.