[split]Atheism is based of ignorance.

[Sword of Christ]

Or, rather, not believe.

If you don't believe in God, a higher power, anything transcendent, eternal immaterial whatever you want to call it that is relevant to us beyond and/or within the physical universe then you believe the opposite of the existence of this. If you're not sure either way you make up your mind, not being sure doesn't win the argument. Claiming we can't know for certain won't work either as I'm just going to agree with you. So I think I have cut through line of argument meaning you'll have to defend your actual metaphysical belief, why you believe it and what you like about it. That's the part I'm interested in not the smoke screens you place around. The Sword of Christ will cut through all that obscurantism and flak and gets right to the heart the action.

There are no 'good reasons' to believe any god exists, not yours, not anyones. [quote]

Are there any good reasons to believe that this universe is all there is, that we came essentially from nothing or random chance coincidence, we're here for no purpose and we when we die there is nothing else? Is there a good reason to assume that all religious, spiritual, mystical experience is a delusion/hallucination and all religions are 100% false and a lie? I would like to see these arguments, the meat and gravy of it, the sustenance.


[quote]Yours is a position of faith (and there's nothing wrong with that on a personal level.

It would take more faith for me to be an atheist. (classic line). There is some truth to it though I don't see how a universe this complex or beings as complex as ourselves could be coincidental or unintentional. Blind natural forces at work without a goal or destination in mind. And certainly if you look at the impact God has had in human history, much for the good, you're saying this is a delusion of the human brain? Are you sure you're not fighting against the evidence?

Whatever makes you happy).

Right so it's a fantasy people entertain to be happy you believe this. Why do you believe this?

is a position of not believing your claims (which are based on faith).

Why are you believing the claims of materialist naturalism? You don't know these claims are true.

That is a virtue, not a vice.

Belief in God is a vice but pure physical materialism and naturalism is somehow a lofty virtuous thing? Is this a reaction against of the excesses of religious belief? But you know belief in God has inspired much good in the world as well right? It's not all Inquisitions and Crusades.

[Bad Wolf]

If you don't believe in God, a higher power, anything transcendent, eternal immaterial whatever you want to call it that is relevant to us beyond and/or within the physical universe then you believe the opposite of the existence of this.

Not true. I have demonstrated how. Read the analogy again.
So you don't believe the jar of sweets has an even amount in it. That means you must believe that the amount is odd. See what I did there? Your logic, doesn't make sense

[Simon Moon]

It would take more faith for me to be an atheist. (classic line). There is some truth to it though I don't see how a universe this complex or beings as complex as ourselves could be coincidental or unintentional. Blind natural forces at work without a goal or destination in mind. And certainly if you look at the impact God has had in human history, much for the good, you're saying this is a delusion of the human brain? Are you sure you're not fighting against the evidence?

Your personal incredulity is not evidence. It is just massive argument from ignorance.

Just because you are unable to see how the universe could arise via natural processes, does not mean that it didn't. And it certainly doesn't mean that other, far more educated people than you, aren't able to.

Remember, at one time humans could not see how lightning, disease, earthquakes, famines, volcanic eruptions, etc, etc occurred without a god, either.

Belief in God is a vice but pure physical materialism and naturalism is somehow a lofty virtuous thing? Is this a reaction against of the excesses of religious belief? But you know belief in God has inspired much good in the world as well right? It's not all Inquisitions and Crusades.

Yes, having beliefs that are not based on demonstrable evidence and reasoned argument is not a virtue. Faith is not a path to truth.

Your beliefs inform your actions. Actions based on faulty or unsupported beliefs lead to bad decisions. The South in the US justified keeping slaves based on their beliefs in the Bible.

The good that you say is inspired by belief in 'God' is not dependent on that belief. There is nothing good that has been done based on the belief in a god that could not be done without it.

Google "Norman Borlaug, Ph.D". He's a scientist that is credited in saving the lives of a billion people. He was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1970 in recognition of his contributions to world peace through increasing food supply. He was an atheist.

[Esquilax]

If you want to say we don't or can't know for certain, this side of death anyway, then I'm going to agree with you. What I don't agree with is why you opted to believe what you believe. Some aspects of faith can be challenging and you may find yourself disagreeing or chafing against certain dogmas and doctrine and what have you. The Enlightenment and the scientific era did happen you can't go back to the middle ages. But I still don't see you would have to abandon all faith in God when there many good reasons to believe he exists, now more than ever possibly. So yes I'm being serious.

The reason I don't believe in god has nothing to do with chafing against doctrine, or anything like that. It's that god isn't the default position; belief in any[ claim is not the default position. I need to be convinced, and thus far, all the arguments I've heard, the proofs for miracles and such... don't do so. That's all. Perhaps in future I'll hear something that does convince me, but it hasn't happened yet.

[LastPoet]

[LastPoet]

Okay, thread split completed, carry on...

[Tonus]

But our relative ignorance is a damn good reason to deny anything beyond the physical world or some kind of greater meaning/purpose to life?

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are positing a "world" that we cannot detect through any of our senses or even through instruments or evidence of physical effects. It seems to me that god has always existed just outside of our ability to perceive him. Long ago, he lived just above the planet. As we extended our gaze, he moved further and further away. Finally, he shunted his entire abode into an entirely different dimension from which he only peeks when he's sure no one is looking. And he made sure that the world seems to work as if he was never necessary, and works as if he is not around to intervene.

There are many such beings and realities that I am ignorant of in regards to their actual existence. It's not as if men have not continued to create gods and monsters over the course of our existence. I cannot disprove that there is a cartoon universe where Mickey Mouse is god and Donald Duck the devil. Or that great C'thulhu isn't resting somewhere beneath the waves, ready for the wakening call that will come when his devoted followers finally get that blasted portal open. Maybe I'm ignorant to the very real danger that exists on the other side of that veil. And maybe there's nothing there.

[pocaracas]

Okay, thread split completed, carry on...

Nice work!

[Esquilax]

If you don't believe in God, a higher power, anything transcendent, eternal immaterial whatever you want to call it that is relevant to us beyond and/or within the physical universe then you believe the opposite of the existence of this.

So, if you don't think something is hot, you have no choice but to think that it's cold? If you don't dislike something, you immediately have to like it?

Listen, because this is the last time I'm going to say this: you and the other theists are saying "there is a god." I, and many other atheists are responding, "I don't believe you, can you prove it?" That doesn't mean we're bound to think that there is no god, it means we don't know, and we're expectantly waiting for you to provide proof. Because you're unable to do so, instead of just admitting that you're arguing some other thing.

The moment you stop arguing against our position, you're just talking to yourself. And there's no possible manner to tell other people who you don't know what they believe than a hostile one; wouldn't you rather actually debate the issue, rather than do absolutely nothing productive?

[max-greece]

With all this "I don't know" approach I am not sure we will ever get anywhere.

Why am I an atheist?

Well I like to think of myself as a largely logical sort of fellow so here's my thought process:

Something started the universe:

Possibly nothingness started it or it started on its own but lets just say something did:

Did it start it deliberately or was in a accident? How can we know?
Did it have to have intelligence? Could it have been caused by another natural phenomenon? Like the collapse of a previous universe (assuming time applies outside this universe in the same way as it does in it). If time behaves differently this universe could have been started by its own ultimate collapse for all I know?

So suppose it was the deliberate act of a creator God - or a committee of gods perhaps (we'll use the singular from now on - just for ease):

Could have been an act of whimsy?
Could be a deist hands-off sort of God?

Now we know that it all started 13.72 billion years ago.

Apparently just under 70% of the universe is Dark matter.
Just under 30% is Dark energy.

The remainder is everything we can see - stars, planets, galaxies, pulsars - the lot. About 1% of the total.

Of that 1%:

We know (in the known universe) that there are about 100 billion galaxies containing some 10^23 stars.

We know that on the outer arm, of an outer arm, of an utterly average galaxy there is a planet called earth that was "borne" some 4.5 billion years ago.

Now on that planet life started about 4 billion years ago.

For 3.5 billion years - single celled life only.
About 500 million years ago - the Cambrian explosion - mutli-cellular life

....5 great extinction events......> mammals (60 million years ago).

.....200,000 years ago -> Man.

Now, is it reasonable to assume there's a god, your god, who wants us to worship him, needs us to tell him how wonderful he is, watches what we do and keeps a log, rewards good behaviour and punishes bad behaviour......

Gotta go with no. Frankly I'm on the no side for the deist God too.

Just doesn't seem to be required. No observation yet made needs a God to explain it.

There is simply no reason I can see to believe.