Revelation 21 10-27

[Brakeman]

Many things get overlooked when reading the bible. I think
Revelation 21 10-27 is quite the gem. It raises so many questions that don't seem to follow modern xtian thought.

Keep in mind Heaven is not being described. New Jerusalem is being described. They are not the same place.

Well Thinking the obvious thing that I could go back a few verses and see what you are talking about, I read the preceding chapter 20. OMG!

Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV)

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now The previous verse to the descriptions of "heaven" or as you say "the new Jerusalem" is a verse about mankind being judged and thrown into the lake of fire. By juxtaposition it would make more sense to deem it a description of an earthly addendum to heaven. By what verses do you see it talking about a new Jerusalem that is not heaven. Furthermore, if this "new Jerusalem" is not yet in existence, why would anyone build a wall around a city anymore. Why do you think we abandoned city wall building? Did the prophet not know about the coming evolution of cities? Of course god is probably the designer of this city that is supposed to "pop" out of heaven, and he is dreadfully unaware of the modern world.
What is the purpose of this new Jerusalem? Where is he going to put it? ion top of the old Jerusalem? Are the people living there going to get squished? The gates and walls must be very very important in the future. Mankind is sure to forget how to overcome a city's pre-medieval defense structures.

[Minimalist]

Its just one gate for each tribe - they don't like mixing apparently.

Also one for each sign of the zodiac.


Coincidentally.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Anyone know, offhand, what cleaner is safe to use on emerald anyway?

Tepid water and a mild laundry soap. You can scrub the emerald with either a jeweler's brush or a VERY soft toothbrush.

My wife has red hair and green eyes - emeralds suit her colouring is how I know.

Boru

[Bucky Ball]

When God created heaven He didn't care what you thought about it, and why would you care, unless you're planing to change your heart.
Actually I think God built it out of material that we've never known, you ever see transparent gold.

GC

How utterly bizarre. Your gods LIVE in heaven. Where did they live BEFORE they created heaven ? Do you people ever even THINK about the crap consequences of that drivel ?
You do realize, I hope, that the Hebrews did not believe in "heaven'. ALL the souls in the Babble, good and bad went to Sheol. Need some Babble verses ? I got lots to prove that.

More proof that these people don't even know their OWN cult. Is their deity SO fucking stupid, she wouldn't know if someone *said* they believed, if they really didn't.
One does not have the ability to assent to crap, honestly, when one honestly doesn't buy the shit.

Jebus tole ya : "Many are called, few are CHOSEN".
................... : "No one hall come to me UNLESS the Father draw him".
So..... you don't buy the nonsense either, and just make up your own, I see. The cognitive dissonances must be epic "in there".

It also raises the question, since he said his deity built heaven, of how a deity can "exist". Existence (and nonexistence) are subsumed in the (total) nature of Reality. How can a deity be subsumed, and participate, of necessity, eternally, in ONLY PART of Reality, and yet be the creator of the reality in which it is eternally subsumed, and of necessity, is required, by it's nature, to participate ?

[max-greece]

"Furthermore, if this "new Jerusalem" is not yet in existence, why would anyone build a wall around a city anymore."

Keep the non-jews out I guess.....

[Godscreated]

When God created heaven He didn't care what you thought about it, and why would you care, unless you're planing to change your heart.
Actually I think God built it out of material that we've never known, you ever see transparent gold.

Transparent or not, gold is a lousy building material. But that's not really the point.

Actually, when human beings created heaven, they created it out of rare materials - that which is rare tends to be both precious and desirable. This is why the Christian heaven doesn't have streets paved with goatskin, and why the Muslim paradise seems to take the form of an oasis.

It is a human trait to want what we haven't got (which, incidentally, makes the 10th commandment a bit of a mug's game), so we fill our fantasies not with commonalities, but with rarities.

For the record, do you seriously believe that Heaven is a physical place?

Boru

Yes I do, exactly what makes you believe it can't be.

GC

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Yes I do, exactly what makes you believe it can't be.

For a start, there's no evidence for a physical Heaven. For another, I find no more reason to believe in an Abrahamic Heaven than I do to believe in a Norse Valhalla or the Wiccan Summerland. These are all simply creations of people with a fear of death.

Philosophically, a physical afterlife makes no sense at all. What use have spirits for a physical abode? Spirits in heaven would have no need to eat, breathe, sleep, excrete, and so on - what do they need fancy mansions for?

More importantly, what use has God for such a place?

Boru

[Heir Apparent]

Is everyone forgetting that Revelation was authored by an insane exiled guy who was probably tripping on some local plant life at the time?

[Godscreated]

When God created heaven He didn't care what you thought about it, and why would you care, unless you're planing to change your heart.
Actually I think God built it out of material that we've never known, you ever see transparent gold.

GC

How utterly bizarre. Your gods LIVE in heaven. Where did they live BEFORE they created heaven ? Do you people ever even THINK about the crap consequences of that drivel ?

I have no idea what your talking about, I believe in the one true God of creation. Where all those other gods live was up to those who worshiped them.

You do realize, I hope, that the Hebrews did not believe in "heaven'. ALL the souls in the Babble, good and bad went to Sheol. Need some Babble verses ? I got lots to prove that.

I have a question for you, are you older than 12, 13 years old? Sheol is the grave, seems the Israelites had that right, even you'll be there for awhile.
The Hebrew word She'ol means "the lowest pit", and was seen as the common receptacle for the dead, below the earth, from Duet. 32:22. It comes from a root word to meaning make hollow. Psalm 139:8 "If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, thou art with me", showing that God's power even reaches there, thus Sheol is the grave, God will not be in hell, hell is the place absent of God's presence. It's rendered as the grave in Song of Solomon 8:6.

Heaven- Psalm 11:4 The LORD is in His holy temple; the LORD's throne is in heaven;... Being that a king's throne is in his temple, this would put God's temple in heaven, seems the Israelites saw heaven as an eternal place.
Psalm 57:2 I cry out to God Most High, to God who fulfills His purpose for me. 3) He will send from heaven and save me; He will put to shame him who tramples on me. God will send out His steadfast love and His faithfulness. Again referring to a specific place.
2nd Kings 2:11 And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 12 And Elisha saw it and cried, "My father, my father!
Genesis 5:24 Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.
Genesis 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold there was a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached heaven. And behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it! 13) And behold, the Lord stood above it.

More proof that these people don't even know their OWN cult. Is their deity SO fucking stupid, she wouldn't know if someone *said* they believed, if they really didn't.

You need to either grow up or learn more about Christianity, we have no cult and our God is referred to as He. The only one acting stupid here is yourself, you should mature some before trying to debate.

One does not have the ability to assent to crap, honestly, when one honestly doesn't buy the shit.
Jebus tole ya : "Many are called, few are CHOSEN".
................... : "No one hall come to me UNLESS the Father draw him".
So..... you don't buy the nonsense either, and just make up your own, I see. The cognitive dissonances must be epic "in there".

This muttering has no meaning so how do you expect someone to respond, garble is what infants do.

All the garble and babble you have displayed here has been stated many, many times, you've added nothing new to conversation here, you should learn as I've told others to do, you need to learn and study the scriptures. The Israelite are looking for the New Jerusalem just as Christians are, they missed out on Christ because of their jealous leaders and like many they will miss out on the New Jerusalem as well.

GC

[Bucky Ball]

I have no idea what your talking about, I believe in the one true God of creation. Where all those other gods live was up to those who worshiped them.

Ya ya ya. That's what they all say. Your god is special. They've all been saying that for thousands of years. And stomping their impotent little feet. "My god is better than your god".
There is no more proof for your god, than any of the other countless gods. You actually think Yahweh, (the Babylonian war god, and the 70th son of El Elyion), is any different than Zeus, or Jupiter ?
If your god actually "created" something, it proves she is not "eternal" and "changeless". Actions are are an "endpoint" to timelessness. Make up you mind.
You did not address the question. Nice try at evasion, OR you're just too dumb to get it. YOU said your deity created heaven. Where exactly did it exist, before that ? She was eternal, I assume ?
That means for eternity BEFORE she made heaven, she did not exist in heaven. Maybe you didn't think that little bit of pietistic bullshit through, before you spouted it.
The point is also that if your deity exists, then from ALL ETERNITY, concurrently, non-existence also existed, as long as she existed, and she was not, and could not be, the creator of all of Reality.

I have a question for you, are you older than 12, 13 years old? Sheol is the grave, seems the Israelites had that right, even you'll be there for awhile. The Hebrew word She'ol means "the lowest pit", and was seen as the common receptacle for the dead, below the earth, from Duet. 32:22. It comes from a root word to meaning make hollow. Psalm 139:8 "If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, thou art with me", showing that God's power even reaches there, thus Sheol is the grave, God will not be in hell, hell is the place absent of God's presence. It's rendered as the grave in Song of Solomon 8:6.

So you don't know how to look up a profile. The question is "Are you like 6 ?"
I should have said "heaven for dead people". Sheol WAS the pit. All shades, (ALL DEAD people, whether good OR bad, ALL went to Sheol), NOT to heaven.
There was NO HEAVEN for dead people, except a very few in Hebrew culture.
Every scholar, (except the fundies at Babble College) knows that. You should ask your Babble school for your money back.
Obviously you have never studied the culture history and languages of the ancient Near East. I have.

Psalm 39 :
"Turn your gaze away from me, that I may smile again,
before I depart, and am no more"

Psalm 115 :
The dead do not praise the Lord,
nor do any that go down into silence".

Immortality did not develop in Hebrew culture, until well AFTER the Exile. Even the founder of your cult, (Paulianity), Saul of Tarsus did not believe in immortality for everyone.
Their GOD lived in heaven. NOT DEAD PEOPLE. Elijah, and a few heroes were granted immortality. Not everyone. You really should take a Babble class.
(See Dr. Bernard Brandon Scott SEMINARY professor of the NT in Tulsa, "The Trouble with Resurrection").

Re: he/she. So your god has circulating testosterone, and a weenie ? If not, "she" is just as appropriate a pronoun, UNLESS you are a prejudiced misogynist.
You REALLY do think men are BETTER than women, don't you ?

You have demonstrated you know nothing about your cult, or it's history.

Only a very small subset of Jews were apocalyptics, and even a smaller set were waiting for a messiah. You have proven NOTHING. Proof by assertion is worthless. The Jews that were waiting for the new kingdom were waiting for a POLITICAL leader. Even the apostles thought Jebus was a political leader. At the very end of his ministry, they were STILL asking : "Wilt Thou oh Lord, at this time restore the kingdom to Israel ?" (Acts 1) The job of the messiah was to restore the kingdom. Jebus failed in that task, just like all the other dying and rising messiah pretenders, of his day.