Revelation 21 10-27

[ThomM]

Revelation ALSO says

Revelation 1:7

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him."

This could only happen on a flat earth. AND even then - the earth would have to be much smaller than it is as well.

Obviously there are lots of "details" that were never created by the original fiction writers of the religion - among them - the date of the birth and the death of the christ. Obviously - things that were never real - have neither though.

Have you ever looked into how they determine the date of Easter Sunday - for instance. Obviously - if it was a REAL DATE - it would change days every tear - and not always fall on a Sunday

The ecclesiastical rules are:

Easter falls on the first Sunday following the first ecclesiastical full moon that occurs on or after the day of the vernal equinox;
this particular ecclesiastical full moon is the 14th day of a tabular lunation (new moon); and
the vernal equinox is fixed as March 21.


Worse - in the Eastern rite - the equinox is fixed as the 21 on the Julian Calendar - while the Roman date is based on the Gregorian Calendar.

And - of course - Easter Sunday starts at 12:01 AM of the Sunday no matter where you are on earth - while the Equinox happens at ONE TIME - which would be a different time around the world

So - the earliest Easter Sunday can be is March 22nd - and the Latest it can be is April 25th - WOW - a span of over a month! Makes no real sense to anyone

[Minimalist]

More importantly, what use has God for such a place?

Boru

Isn't it obvious? He needs it to impress assholes like G-C.

[Doubting Thomas]

Have you ever looked into how they determine the date of Easter Sunday - for instance. Obviously - if it was a REAL DATE - it would change days every tear - and not always fall on a Sunday

The ecclesiastical rules are:

Easter falls on the first Sunday following the first ecclesiastical full moon that occurs on or after the day of the vernal equinox;
this particular ecclesiastical full moon is the 14th day of a tabular lunation (new moon); and
the vernal equinox is fixed as March 21.


Worse - in the Eastern rite - the equinox is fixed as the 21 on the Julian Calendar - while the Roman date is based on the Gregorian Calendar.

And - of course - Easter Sunday starts at 12:01 AM of the Sunday no matter where you are on earth - while the Equinox happens at ONE TIME - which would be a different time around the world

So - the earliest Easter Sunday can be is March 22nd - and the Latest it can be is April 25th - WOW - a span of over a month! Makes no real sense to anyone

Meh, it's all symbolic anyway. Christianity mainly appropriated the pagan Easter holiday in order to placate and convert all the pagans who refused to stop celebrating their special holidays. That's why you'll find that most Christian holidays fall on or near the dates for pagan holidays. This is why we still have colored eggs and bunnies as part of the Easter holiday. There's nothing biblical about finding hidden colored eggs, but it can be traced back to other non-Christian religions.

Like Halloween for instance... the Catholic church just happened to come up with "All Souls Day" on November 1. The pagans were celebrating (IIRC) the souls of the dead wandering the earth again, so the church decided to Christianize it by celebrating all the faithful departed.

Christmas was invented to celebrate Jesus' birth, which would have been in the spring since in the myth the shepherds were "laying with their flock" which they only did during the spring lambing season in order to protect the lambs from predators. However, the church decided to co-opt the pagan winter solstice holiday.

So it doesn't really matter when they celebrate their holidays since most likely all their holidays are based on the wrong dates, which, if the bible myths are true in the first place, they didn't even have calendars back then as far as I know, but would be impossible to know the exact dates anyway since none were written down.

[Godscreated]

Yes I do, exactly what makes you believe it can't be.

For a start, there's no evidence for a physical Heaven. For another, I find no more reason to believe in an Abrahamic Heaven than I do to believe in a Norse Valhalla or the Wiccan Summerland. These are all simply creations of people with a fear of death.

Philosophically, a physical afterlife makes no sense at all. What use have spirits for a physical abode? Spirits in heaven would have no need to eat, breathe, sleep, excrete, and so on - what do they need fancy mansions for?

More importantly, what use has God for such a place?

Boru

We will be resurrected with physical bodies, Christ will serve our first meal, I can't give evidence but I would bet our new bodies will be designed to completely use the heavenly food and drink we'll have. The fancy mansions are gifts from God, it's what Christ wants to do for us, why do you have a problem with such wonderful gifts. I'd bet if someone offered you a house tomorrow you wouldn't turn it down, right. God has a use for heaven because that's what He wanted, why do you have a problem with God creating what He desires.

GC

---

Is everyone forgetting that Revelation was authored by an insane exiled guy who was probably tripping on some local plant life at the time?

Like you tell Christians, you need to bring proof of your statement.

GC

---

I have no idea what your talking about, I believe in the one true God of creation. Where all those other gods live was up to those who worshiped them.

Ya ya ya. That's what they all say. Your god is special. They've all been saying that for thousands of years. And stomping their impotent little feet. "My god is better than your god".
There is no more proof for your god, than any of the other countless gods. You actually think Yahweh, (the Babylonian war god, and the 70th son of El Elyion), is any different than Zeus, or Jupiter ?
If your god actually "created" something, it proves she is not "eternal" and "changeless". Actions are are an "endpoint" to timelessness. Make up you mind.
You did not address the question. Nice try at evasion, OR you're just too dumb to get it. YOU said your deity created heaven. Where exactly did it exist, before that ? She was eternal, I assume ?
That means for eternity BEFORE she made heaven, she did not exist in heaven. Maybe you didn't think that little bit of pietistic bullshit through, before you spouted it.
The point is also that if your deity exists, then from ALL ETERNITY, concurrently, non-existence also existed, as long as she existed, and she was not, and could not be, the creator of all of Reality.

I have a question for you, are you older than 12, 13 years old? Sheol is the grave, seems the Israelites had that right, even you'll be there for awhile. The Hebrew word She'ol means "the lowest pit", and was seen as the common receptacle for the dead, below the earth, from Duet. 32:22. It comes from a root word to meaning make hollow. Psalm 139:8 "If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, thou art with me", showing that God's power even reaches there, thus Sheol is the grave, God will not be in hell, hell is the place absent of God's presence. It's rendered as the grave in Song of Solomon 8:6.

So you don't know how to look up a profile. The question is "Are you like 6 ?"
I should have said "heaven for dead people". Sheol WAS the pit. All shades, (ALL DEAD people, whether good OR bad, ALL went to Sheol), NOT to heaven.
There was NO HEAVEN for dead people, except a very few in Hebrew culture.
Every scholar, (except the fundies at Babble College) knows that. You should ask your Babble school for your money back.
Obviously you have never studied the culture history and languages of the ancient Near East. I have.

Psalm 39 :
"Turn your gaze away from me, that I may smile again,
before I depart, and am no more"

Psalm 115 :
The dead do not praise the Lord,
nor do any that go down into silence".

Immortality did not develop in Hebrew culture, until well AFTER the Exile. Even the founder of your cult, (Paulianity), Saul of Tarsus did not believe in immortality for everyone.
Their GOD lived in heaven. NOT DEAD PEOPLE. Elijah, and a few heroes were granted immortality. Not everyone. You really should take a Babble class.
(See Dr. Bernard Brandon Scott SEMINARY professor of the NT in Tulsa, "The Trouble with Resurrection").

Re: he/she. So your god has circulating testosterone, and a weenie ? If not, "she" is just as appropriate a pronoun, UNLESS you are a prejudiced misogynist.
You REALLY do think men are BETTER than women, don't you ?

You have demonstrated you know nothing about your cult, or it's history.

Only a very small subset of Jews were apocalyptics, and even a smaller set were waiting for a messiah. You have proven NOTHING. Proof by assertion is worthless. The Jews that were waiting for the new kingdom were waiting for a POLITICAL leader. Even the apostles thought Jebus was a political leader. At the very end of his ministry, they were STILL asking : "Wilt Thou oh Lord, at this time restore the kingdom to Israel ?" (Acts 1) The job of the messiah was to restore the kingdom. Jebus failed in that task, just like all the other dying and rising messiah pretenders, of his day.

Tell you what, when you get past the age of 6 and learn to use words appropriate to the discussion, I will answer those questions, I have no time for badgering insolent children.

GC

[Huggy Bear]

Many things get overlooked when reading the bible. I think
Revelation 21 10-27 is quite the gem. It raises so many questions that don't seem to follow modern xtian thought.

11 Having the glory of God: and her(?) light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Why would heaven need multiple gates, or any gates for that matter? What was it to keep in or out? Wild animals? Won't god just teleport you to heaven? Are you expected to walk? Why do the gates need naming? Is heaven racially segregated?

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
How does a wall have twelve foundations? Why does it matter what they are named? Who would care at that point? Wouldn't all christians be equals at that time?

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. Didn't god have a sears Craftsman laser measure? Would god really measure his kingdom with a stick?

18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
Why would god use materials that were precious to man? Rarity wouldn't be an issue for god. Why wouldn't it be made of the best building materials instead of gemstones? Why did god not use any of modern high tech building materials such as Aluminum, Platinum, Stainless steel? Pre-stressed concrete?

Why is heaven described like a 1st century primitive city instead of a 22 century modern utopia?
(Yes fellow atheists, I know it's because it was written by ignorant goat herders, but I want the Apologists response)

The simplest answer is that scripture isn't talking about heaven, it is describing New Jerusalem (aka Mount Zion) which will be established on earth. In the book of Daniel, the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar had a dream where he saw a statue with a head of gold, chest and arms of silver, stomach and his thighs of brass, legs and feet iron and clay. then a stone rolled down a struck the statue in the feet destroying it and growing into a mountain. the interpretation of the dream by Daniel was that each of the metals represented a great kingdom. Gold being Babylon followed by Macedon (silver), then Rome (brass), and finally the two emerging powers after world war 2, the US (iron) and Russia (clay). note that the surname Eisenhower translates into "Iron Miner" and Khrushchev in to roughly "the one who clears land". The stone then strikes the feet (end times) of the statue and grows in to a mountain (mount Zion) and establishing its self as the kingdom to rule for the rest of eternity.
Psalm 48
48 Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness.
2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

Revelation 21
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

As a side note, if you look at the dimensions given of the city, you'll see that the city is a giant pyramid with a base of about 1500 square miles, And about 1500 miles from the base to the apex where God will reside.

[Bob Kelso]

We will be segregated in accordance to what we were faithful to in this life. There will be different classes of people in Heaven. There will be those who narrowly escape the flames of hell, that bring nothing with them. then there are those who work dillegently who are storing up great riches.

Oh look at that, more segregation in your religion and castes to look down upon. Man oh man GC is going to love that.

[Doubting Thomas]

Is that why they come here and act like a dick? So God will reward them for annoying the heathens?

Oh and I thought Heaven consisted of eternal happiness, so how could anyone be happy knowing that they're a second class citizen of Heaven instead of a first class citizen?

[Neo-Scholastic]

Its symbolic as explained by Swedenborg in Apocalypse Revealed.

[Brakeman]

Revelation 21
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.[/color]

As a side note, if you look at the dimensions given of the city, you'll see that the city is a giant pyramid with a base of about 1500 square miles, And about 1500 miles from the base to the apex where God will reside.

That's not a pyramid, that's a spire! Better recheck your measurements.

When this "New Jerusalem" comes popping out of the sky and squishes all of the "old Jerusalem" don't you think it's going to look a bit gaudy and out of place?

Will modern cars be allowed on these streets of gold, or will we have to go back to camels and donkeys?

Why will god want to "reside" there? Isn't he everywhere, yet nowhere at the same time? Does god have a need to sit in a chair every so often or does he just have a thing for "thrones?"

27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

So both heaven and this New Jerusalem both have "lamb's book of life" entry requirements? How does one know where they are going to be stationed in the afterlife, in Heaven or the "New Jerusalem?"

[ThomM]

[/quote]

Meh, it's all symbolic anyway. Christianity mainly appropriated the pagan Easter holiday in order to placate and convert all the pagans who refused to stop celebrating their special holidays. That's why you'll find that most Christian holidays fall on or near the dates for pagan holidays. This is why we still have colored eggs and bunnies as part of the Easter holiday. There's nothing biblical about finding hidden colored eggs, but it can be traced back to other non-Christian religions.

Like Halloween for instance... the Catholic church just happened to come up with "All Souls Day" on November 1. The pagans were celebrating (IIRC) the souls of the dead wandering the earth again, so the church decided to Christianize it by celebrating all the faithful departed.

Christmas was invented to celebrate Jesus' birth, which would have been in the spring since in the myth the shepherds were "laying with their flock" which they only did during the spring lambing season in order to protect the lambs from predators. However, the church decided to co-opt the pagan winter solstice holiday.

So it doesn't really matter when they celebrate their holidays since most likely all their holidays are based on the wrong dates, which, if the bible myths are true in the first place, they didn't even have calendars back then as far as I know, but would be impossible to know the exact dates anyway since none were written down.
[/quote]


Yes - indeed - religions are offspring of earlier religions. In order to appease the people - they had to ABSORB days that were considered holidays - so they simply put new meanings on the days.

However - the Jewish Calendar did exist at the supposed time of the christ and the same calendar still exists today - used by the Jewish religion. That the Sabbath is Saturday is not and never was in question - except by the xtians who did not want to worship on the same day as the Jews.

As far as the "birth" of the christ - it would have happened in the fall season - not the spring - because that is when Rome collected taxes - from the reaped crop. OF course - an event that actually never happened to begin with is not worth arguing over.

---

[/quote]

Tell you what, when you get past the age of 6 and learn to use words appropriate to the discussion, I will answer those questions, I have no time for badgering insolent children.

GC
[/quote]


Tell you what - when YOU can provide proof of the existence of ANY god - much less yours - with proof that can be tested and verified - we will listen to your nonsense

However - we do not actually recognize the bible to be accurate at much of anything. Certainly genesis has proven to be a bunch of fairy tales - right from the first page. Only a BABY who still believe in Santa Claus would use the bible to attempt to prove anything - since it is NOT proof of anything. No one knows who wrote most of it - we have no proof of authorship. Writing Style studies show that most books were written by more than one writer. And there is no reason to believe any of the supernatural claims in it - there is no independent support for it as well.

As far as the christ - there is not a single document that we have -that can be dated from that supposed time - that mentions his name - which of course cannot be "jesus" to begin with. The MYTH certainly fails to support the prophecies for the messiah in the bible - to rebuild the temple for the third time - unite the world under the Jewish religion and have all admit they were wrong about their beleifs - and to usher in a 1000 year period of peace on earth. And if the god was all knowing and almighty - which directly contradict each other anyway - there would be NO reason for a NEW Promise from the god - since he Knew everything already when he made the first ones.

So - When YOU have the testable proof here - post it here - you will be the first

But as usual - people like you - since YOU have no such proof of your fantasy religions and gpds - attack the questions or the questioner -
Normal nonsense from the deluded