Challenge to atheists: I find your lack of faith disturbing!

[tor]

Why don't Christians just admit the elephant in the room? Their faith doesn't depend on evidence and citing written testimony from 2,000 years ago is merely grasping at straws. It demonstrates how little substance truly lies at the core of their beliefs. If there's one thing I've learned in my 26 years on Earth, it's to not take everybody's claims at face value until they the produce sufficient reasons why I should. Christianity UTTERLY FAILS at even this.

Yet it's so fucking popular. AMAZING!

[Mudhammam]

Why don't Christians just admit the elephant in the room? Their faith doesn't depend on evidence and citing written testimony from 2,000 years ago is merely grasping at straws. It demonstrates how little substance truly lies at the core of their beliefs. If there's one thing I've learned in my 26 years on Earth, it's to not take everybody's claims at face value until they the produce sufficient reasons why I should. Christianity UTTERLY FAILS at even this.

Yet it's so fucking popular. AMAZING!

Because it's so simple and contains all the right ingredients to satisfy an ego-- just not a skeptical or curious one.

[DeistPaladin]

Explains that some people can misinterpret what they see - mind you most Elvis sightings were well after the first 40 days of his death. What it doesn't explain is why do we have all the disciples and all the apostles called as witnesses to the event, plus another 500 Christians? Surely you're not going to tell me that of all 11 disciples and however many apostles there were at that time that none of them would be recorded as saying "I never saw the risen Christ"?

Do we now? I'm not aware that we have any witnesses at all. Outside of Christian mythology, do we have any evidence of any of your claims?

Even your own mythology isn't consistent. You claim 500 Christians saw the risen Christ (reference to the Pauline letters). Yet the Book of Acts places the number of Christians at 120.

Acts 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

And what about the very event they are said to have witnessed? Did Jesus ascend into Heaven on the very day of his resurrection (Luke) or did he terry for 8 days to show himself to Thomas (John) or did he preach for 40 days before being taken up into Heaven (Acts).

Luke 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

You'd think eye-witnesses to an event where a dead man came back to life and flew up into the sky (presumably to board a space ship that would take him to Heaven, since we don't believe that there are any angels actually living in the clouds anymore) would get these details straight. This is just one of many gaffes in the resurrection fable.

Sorry, I know this is going to shock you, but as skeptics we just don't buy that the fanciful tales of your Wholly Babble are "historical documents" recorded by "reliable eye-witnesses". To believe anything about The Historical Jesus, I'd have to see corroboration outside of Christian mythology. You're just going to have to do better than "The Bible says..."

[Mudhammam]

Can I get something clarified? Do all Christians believe that aliens regularly visit Earth based on their threshold of what constitutes as evidence (i.e. eye-witness testimony), or is it only those who read the Bible as historical documentation?

[tor]

Can I get something clarified? Do all Christians believe that aliens regularly visit Earth based on their threshold of what constitutes evidence i.e. eye-witness testimony, or is it only those who read the Bible as historical documentation?

You know the answer so why bother asking?
No they believe the bible because it's the truth because they were told so when they were little while all other religions and so on are false. We've been doing this billions of times.

[Mudhammam]

Can I get something clarified? Do all Christians believe that aliens regularly visit Earth based on their threshold of what constitutes evidence i.e. eye-witness testimony, or is it only those who read the Bible as historical documentation?

You know the answer so why bother asking?
No they believe the bible because it's the truth because they were told so when they were little while all other religions and so on are false. We've been doing this billions of times.

Maybe I'm too optimistic but I like to believe that somewhere inside the believer's brain lie some neurons coded for honest introspection.

[DarkHorse]

About his life and death, we can say only that he probably created a disturbance in the temple and he was probably crucified as a troublemaker.

That's not accurate at all, you know that. The facts not in dispute are that Jesus lived, that he called disciples, was baptized by John and that he died by crucifixion. Furthermore, it's also not in dispute that his body went missing three days after his crucifixion, and many atheists have come up with interesting theories as to explain why or how. Some other facts generally accepted are that Paul knew the family of Jesus and that he wrote at least 7 of his Epistles, and furthermore consensus is that Luke-Acts was written by a single Author.

I know you're aware of all this, but I'm reminding you since you made it seem as if any and all of the details of Jesus' life are in dispute among the critical scholars, when in fact many are not.

I don't even think much of his moral teaching is useful. Because he thought the end was nigh, he advised extremes such as not being concerned about where your sustenance would come from, avoiding marriage, etc. One big exception, the parable of the good Samaritan, which can hardly be improved on.

Well that's your theory. I think we'll both agree on quality of the Good Samaritan parable.

What we can say is that he was a brilliant speaker, the parables and the wrong-headed moral teaching really catch your attention. He made a huge impact on his immediate followers, so much so that they could not accept his death, and they began to spread stories of his resurrection, probably after one deluded person had a hallucination.

This theory, as I've pointed out before, means you have to do a lot more explaining like how did Paul get converted to Christianity, and why does he record in 1 Corinthians that there are more than 500 witnesses to the resurrected Christ, most of them still alive?

More to the point, why is this completely consistent?

• Matt 28:10: Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid; go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee, and there they will see me.”
  
• Matt 28:16-20: Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
  
• Mark 16:7: But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.”
  
• Luke 24:18-24: Then one of them, named Cleopas, answered (Jesus), “Are you the only visitor to Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?” And he said to them, “What things?” And they said to him, “Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, a man who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him. But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things happened. Moreover, some women of our company amazed us. They were at the tomb early in the morning, and when they did not find his body, they came back saying that they had even seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive. Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see.”
  
• 1 Corinthians 15:3-8: For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.

Paul writes 1 Corinthians c. 53-55AD, before Matthew or Luke wrote their Gospels and possibly before Mark too. He casually mentions the 500 as if it was common knowledge, although he names others - Cephas (Peter), the 12, James, the apostles (a larger group than the 12) and himself. Paul himself would have been an apostle, however when he meets Jesus he is not yet one, thus he distinguishes himself from the group.

Paul claims to have met the risen Christ, and he makes the explicit claim that the risen Christ appeared before 500 Christians at one time. One deluded person may have an hallucination, but 500 at once? All the disciples? All the apostles too? Mary and Mary? What would make your theory more credible is if one of the disciples or one apostle came out and said "hey these guys are deluded" - did that ever happen? Heck, not even someone from the laity of the period said it.

---

To underscore the plausibility of this scenario, just say one word.

Elvis.

Explains that some people can misinterpret what they see - mind you most Elvis sightings were well after the first 40 days of his death. What it doesn't explain is why do we have all the disciples and all the apostles called as witnesses to the event, plus another 500 Christians? Surely you're not going to tell me that of all 11 disciples and however many apostles there were at that time that none of them would be recorded as saying "I never saw the risen Christ"?

Do you then believe these people were hallucinating? Or do you take the masses at their word and believe them?
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/ch...s-of-ufos/

[tor]

How does he even know there were lots of people who seen this shit?
I run the experiment myself. Come to a secluded village. Tell a rumor to someone. Come back 1 year later and the rumor turned into a legend. Also the legend is developed. There are more people involved. Events are cooler. Special effects are better.
All it takes is people saying things to one another.
There is no way to establish the facts of what happened 2000 years ago when there is no info left other then a freaking old book of legends.

[Confused Ape]

A question for Aractus. Do you believe that Muhammad ascended into Heaven?

The Kitab al Miraj

The Kitab al Miraj (Arabic: كتاب المعراج "Book of the Ascension") is a Muslim book concerned with Muhammad's ascension into Heaven (known as the Miraj), following his miraculous one-night journey from Mecca to Jerusalem (the Isra). The book is divided into 7 chapters, and was written in Arabic using the Naskh script.

Kitab al-Miraj is believed to have been written by Abu'l-Qasim 'Abdalkarîm bin Hawâzin bin 'Abdalmalik bin Talhah bin Muhammad al-Qushairî al-Nisaburi أبو القاسم عبد الكريم بن هوازن بن عبد الملك بن طلحة بن محمد القشيري (born 376 - died 465 A.H.).

Islamic Sources

The event of Isra and Mi'raj are referred to briefly in the Qur'an.

Religious Belief

The Isra is the part of the journey of Muhammad from Mecca to Jerusalem. begins at a time when Muhammad was in the Masjid al-Haram, when the archangel Gabriel came to him, and brought Buraq, the traditional heavenly steed of the prophets. Buraq carries Muhammad to the Masjid Al Aqsa, the "Farthest Mosque", in Jerusalem. Muhammad alights, tethers Buraq to the Temple Mount and performs prayer, where on God's command he is tested by Jibriel.[8][9] It was told by Anas ibn Malik that Muhammad said: Jibril brought me a vessel of wine and a vessel of milk, and I chose the milk. “Jibril said: ‘You have chosen the Fitrah (natural instinct).’ In the second part of the journey, the Mi'raj (an Arabic word that literally means “ladder”[10]), Buraq takes him to the heavens, where he tours the seven circles of heaven, and speaks with the earlier prophets such as Abraham (ʾIbrāhīm), Moses (Musa), John the Baptist (Yaḥyā ibn Zakarīyā), and Jesus (Isa). Muhammad is then taken to Sidrat al-Muntaha – a holy tree in the seventh heaven that Gabriel is not allowed to pass. According to Islamic tradition, God instructs Muhammad that Muslims must pray fifty times per day; however, Moses tells Muhammad that it is very difficult for the people and urges Muhammad to ask for a reduction, until finally it is reduced to five times per day.[3][11][12][13][14]

If you don't believe this, why not? After all, it's written in books and Muslims believe it.

[Tonus]

You forgot to take the quote in context. Let's look at the surrounding verses:

"50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

It is a curious way of wording it, isn't it? At the moment that Jesus cries out and "gives up his spirit," the bodies of many holy people were brought to life. But they don't come out of the tombs until after Jesus' resurrection. Did Matthew mean that Jesus returned to godhood immediately? Otherwise, the first words from those holy people would have been "for fucks sake, didn't any of you assholes hear me banging on the inside of that tomb for three-and-a-half goddamn days???"