Christians forgive themselves

[ronedee]

...

As I've stated previously, you get back what you pump out. Sorry that I don't fit into your little religious mold, and I tear your world apart.

...

Fungus among us! Such fitting, much thanks.

Whew... glad that worked out!

---

Here's the thing, though. The really important thing, that so often gets missed with all these shrill cries of persecution: the hostility isn't coming because of your religious beliefs. You're mistaking the content of the conversation with the reason behind its tone.

The fact is, every last one of us can demonstrably show christians that we talk to quite civilly, who are our friends, our family, people whom we, somehow, manage to treat perfectly neutrally despite our, apparently, persecution of christians. So what's clear, here, is that it isn't your religious beliefs that are causing the reactions here. We can look at it like an experiment; we have evidence that "religious belief," is not the variable which is causing hostility here, because it can't be applied consistently.

Therefore, it must be something else. I'll let the people actually engaged in this tell you what that is.

Personally, you may have experiences. But to assume your experiences are the rule is wrong!

Again you judge "people"! Ok they are religious.... but there are 2.2 billion Christians! Meeting 10,000 a day would take you 100 years! How many are bad, evil etc? I dunno, but it aint billions! Millions?! I don't know?

Maybe mini has been raped as a child, and thats why he constantly complains. I don't blame him! I would too! But, that is not the "rule" of the Catholic religion. Its a consequence of "evil people"! Nothing to do with God! To say it is, is just dumb. Whether you believe in God or not!

If there is no definitive answer to God, or anything to do with creation.... any experience would be testimony.

I have testimony of my experiences. I didn't say you were "wrong" in your ways of thinking! Only definitive answers that are conclusive about God or creation are wrong. Heck, I may have the Holy Spirit, but I don't have any clue of the mechanics involved of Him, creation, or otherwise! Just experiences.

I said that you as others here have every right to question me, and my belief system! As I would, and have questioned yours. I need your experiences and opinions to reinforce my belief! Or knock it out of me! Seriously!

My advantage, I feel, is that: "everything" exists. and there was a "beginning". Atheists, as others, have no explanation for it. So, I think we have an edge in what is "unknown", by all of us!

[Minimalist]

Yes, the Catholic church is hypocritical

It's far more than hypocritical, FFF. It was the systemic protection and transfer of known predators to new hunting grounds which extended to the highest levels of this fucking church. When the fucking pope is transferring pedophiles around to new parishes rather than dealing honestly with the victims I would say we are far beyond 'hypocrisy.'

Dickheads, like ronny don't get it. He is still trying to hide behind the "it was only a few" line of horseshit.

That is why I have no respect for anyone who remains a catholic.

[ronedee]

That is why I have no respect for anyone who remains a catholic.

And German's killed Jews.

Should they change their nationality?

[Ryantology]

There is all kinds of persecution. I don't see any specifics to the definitions:

per·se·cu·tion
ˌpərsəˈkyo͞oSHən/
noun
noun: persecution; plural noun: persecutions

1.
hostility and ill-treatment, esp. because of race or political or religious beliefs.
"her family fled religious persecution"
synonyms: oppression, victimization, maltreatment, ill-treatment, mistreatment, abuse, ill-usage, discrimination, tyranny; More

Yes, there is all kinds of persecution. There's calling names on the internet, and then there's the oppression, victimization, maltreatment, ill-treatment, mistreatment, abuse, ill-usage, discrimination and tyranny atheists have suffered and continue to suffer from Christians to this day.

[ronedee]

Yes, there is all kinds of persecution. There's calling names on the internet, and then there's the oppression, victimization, maltreatment, ill-treatment, mistreatment, abuse, ill-usage, discrimination and tyranny atheists have suffered and continue to suffer from Christians to this day.

Just Christians?

Any honest person would include themselves in that fine speech!

[Esquilax]

Personally, you may have experiences. But to assume your experiences are the rule is wrong!

So, first of all, was this even a response to me? I mean, you quoted me, but then you seemed to spin off in some completely different direction that didn't address anything I said. It's weird.

That said, I'm not just going from my experiences; I do listen when other people speak here, so I know for a fact that many other atheists, more than just me, are capable of talking to christians without "persecuting" them, making your accusation of persecution here demonstrably false by definition.

Maybe mini has been raped as a child, and thats why he constantly complains. I don't blame him! I would too! But, that is not the "rule" of the Catholic religion. Its a consequence of "evil people"! Nothing to do with God! To say it is, is just dumb. Whether you believe in God or not!

You understand that I think literally nothing is a consequence of god, because there isn't one, right? In this religious question, there is only the catholic church, from my perspective; one organization making the rules, and then breaking them as it sees fit. Whether or not it's written down as a rule makes no difference; the organization is hypocritical and harmful, and to merely make excuses that they aren't following the rules, as if that absolves you of any connection to the organization you are a part of, is just a desperate attempt to evade responsibility.

How about this? Next time a catholic sex abuse scandal comes up in the news, instead of just going "not in the rules, not our responsibility, nothing to see here," you instead repudiate the actions of those claiming to represent you and actually contribute to some positive changes?

My advantage, I feel, is that: "everything" exists. and there was a "beginning". Atheists, as others, have no explanation for it. So, I think we have an edge in what is "unknown", by all of us!

This bothers me: are you really saying that any answer, even an incorrect one, is better than actually admitting that you don't know?

[Ryantology]

Yes, there is all kinds of persecution. There's calling names on the internet, and then there's the oppression, victimization, maltreatment, ill-treatment, mistreatment, abuse, ill-usage, discrimination and tyranny atheists have suffered and continue to suffer from Christians to this day.

Just Christians?

Any honest person would include themselves in that fine speech!

Since when do I persecute atheists?

My advantage, I feel, is that: "everything" exists. and there was a "beginning". Atheists, as others, have no explanation for it. So, I think we have an edge in what is "unknown", by all of us!

Not only is this not a disadvantage to us, it's actually a disadvantage to you. You are dogmatically required to hold certain beliefs, so when reality disputes your beliefs, you are forced either to change the definition of reality and knowledge so that you can interpret them as not contradicting your beliefs, or you just deny reality outright. That's not a problem we face. We're not perfect about it, but we do try our best to allow reality to define our beliefs and discard them when further discovery reveals them to be of no value.

You want to define the truth, we want to discover it. You hold your beliefs as sacred, we view beliefs as ephemeral and of limited value. Because of that, we'll always have the advantage.

[ronedee]

Since when do I persecute atheists?

*sigh*.."persecution"...in general.

Not only is this not a disadvantage to us, it's actually a disadvantage to you. You are dogmatically required to hold certain beliefs, so when reality disputes your beliefs, you are forced either to change the definition of reality and knowledge so that you can interpret them as not contradicting your beliefs, or you just deny reality outright. That's not a problem we face. We're not perfect about it, but we do try our best to allow reality to define our beliefs and discard them when further discovery reveals them to be of no value.

You want to define the truth, we want to discover it. You hold your beliefs as sacred, we view beliefs as ephemeral and of limited value. Because of that, we'll always have the advantage.

What "change of definition" are you talking about? And what "certain belief" about creation is it that I'm wrong about?

You've told me a lot about myself! But, nothing about why "everything" exists.

I'm listening? What answers do you have for me to "change" my mind?

---

So, first of all, was this even a response to me? I mean, you quoted me, but then you seemed to spin off in some completely different direction that didn't address anything I said. It's weird.

I was trying to say that there are many reasons for "persecution". But no hard fast reason. Its subjective and selective depending on many, many factors. My experiences of it are on the net exclusively. But, I'm a bit intimidating in person and that probably has a little to do with that. Although my dad (atheist) and brother (aggy) have no problem getting in my face about religion.

That said, I'm not just going from my experiences; I do listen when other people speak here, so I know for a fact that many other atheists, more than just me, are capable of talking to christians without "persecuting" them, making your accusation of persecution here demonstrably false by definition.

No. You are not the subject of persecution here. So you don't have that first hand knowledge.

You understand that I think literally nothing is a consequence of god, because there isn't one, right? In this religious question, there is only the catholic church, from my perspective; one organization making the rules, and then breaking them as it sees fit. Whether or not it's written down as a rule makes no difference; the organization is hypocritical and harmful, and to merely make excuses that they aren't following the rules, as if that absolves you of any connection to the organization you are a part of, is just a desperate attempt to evade responsibility.

How about this? Next time a catholic sex abuse scandal comes up in the news, instead of just going "not in the rules, not our responsibility, nothing to see here," you instead repudiate the actions of those claiming to represent you and actually contribute to some positive changes?

When did I say "not in the rules"? You know not to whom you speak!

You've taken a page(vaguely) from my past posts. No need to preach to the choir on this one.

This bothers me: are you really saying that any answer, even an incorrect one, is better than actually admitting that you don't know?

No. I meant... we "both" have "no proof". But, everything exists.

I say if atheists were right, we wouldn't be talking right now. In fact, no one would.

[Optimistic Mysanthrope]

Well that's the thing, science is more about 'how' than 'why', and atheists generally put a lot of stock in science. Religion offers an answer to those questions that science can't answer, but none that I find satisfactory. To me at least, every answer simply begets another 'why'.

I don't think the universe has a reason for existing, and again to me, if no one else, that makes it all the more wondrous. Metaphysical opinions aside, I feel that the concept of a creator(s) diminishes the inherent beauty of existence. I can assure that as an atheist, when I gaze upon the night sky and the world around me, when I contemplate the insights that even my pathetically inadequate understanding of science bequeaths to me; I experience a beatitude no less profound than your own.

---

Apologies, I have rum. It always mellows me out

[Esquilax]

I was trying to say that there are many reasons for "persecution". But no hard fast reason. Its subjective and selective depending on many, many factors. My experiences of it are on the net exclusively. But, I'm a bit intimidating in person and that probably has a little to do with that. Although my dad (atheist) and brother (aggy) have no problem getting in my face about religion.

And I'm saying that you aren't being persecuted: as you showed, persecution is being discriminated against or abused based on your religion alone. You aren't; you're being treated with hostility in a conversation about religion, but the reason that it's happening has nothing to do with the fact that you're a catholic. It's because you're being smug.

No. You are not the subject of persecution here. So you don't have that first hand knowledge.

Neither are you.

When did I say "not in the rules"? You know not to whom you speak!

But, that is not the "rule" of the Catholic religion.

No. I meant... we "both" have "no proof". But, everything exists.

I say if atheists were right, we wouldn't be talking right now. In fact, no one would.

Oh, I disagree: we'd still be talking, we'd just be doing so on the basis of evidence and the promise of future investigations, not the presuppositions of people making claims they don't intend to provide evidence for, like religions do.