Collaboration with theists?

[Edwardo Piet]

There is no such thing as atheist fundamentalism. There is only one fundamental in atheism: And that is one non-belief: Disbelief in God.

So what on earth are you talking about? What fundamentals are you referring to?

Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc, are forms of theism. And you can do something in the name of all those things, for they are religions, and religions are belief systems. You can do something in the name of belief systems, and theism has positive beliefs in it. Atheism isn't. Atheist is a negative, it's a rejection, and a rejection of just the one belief. Theism in itself has beliefs, however much they vary - atheism in itself doesn't.

Religion is not on its last legs in the west. America is full of religion, especially Christianity... and also full of creationism.

And creationism is on the rise in the UK. Even the UK is not full of atheists.

EvF

[leo-rcc]

Well that's hardly fair. How can you do harm in the name of something you don't believe in?

My point exactly.

Take my own faith.. I don't know anyone that has acted in the spirit of the faith and done harm. I know of very many corrupt people who have used it to their own end.. so are you saying you want to stop people having ideas? Because that's the only way you'd stop ideas being abused.

So what are you saying? All these people doing these atrocities were corrupt? What possible gain does a suicide bomber have? How does killing a doctor from an abortion clinic help the killer?

These people that committed harm in their faith would only do this because their faith allows for these things. You say they abuse their ideas, I say they committed these acts because that is the only way these people saw to "do the right thing". Whether you or I think their interpretation of their faith is wrong is irrelevant, all that matters if they themselves believe what they do is right.

[fr0d0]

Suicide bombers serve political/ war purposes. I can't speak for Islam, to me it seems to promote these things. I only mentioned Xtianity. Abortion Clinic bombers are seriously misguided and don't follow Christianity but pervert it for their own ends. This has been covered before here.

Yeah people pervert ideas. That's the reality. Without religion it'd still happen.

[Edwardo Piet]

Whether "right" or "wrong", religions are belief systems. They drive people. Non-belief in God doesn't do any such thing, atheism doesn't do any such thing. It's something else that would drive atheists to do wrong, not their atheism. If atheists do wrong it's completely unrelated to their atheism - because non-belief in God is one disbelief, and it's entirely non-moral: Meaning it has got nothing to do with morality. It is neither moral nor immoral to disbelieve in God. Although it does mean you are free from the possibility of some religious beliefs that at least could be seen as immoral.

EvF

[fr0d0]

Theism doesn't drive people, theistic systems might ...you're on to a loser here Evie

[Secularone]

To be fair and honest, I must say that although atheism is not a belief system, atheists can do evil on the basis of their beliefs. For example:

I am an atheist. I have no belief in a deity. However, I do believe religion is a scourge of mankind. That belief might motivate me to want to burn down a church or commit some other criminal atrocity. Fortunately, when I left religion behind, I also left behind my willingness to do evil, supposedly in the name of good.

But atheism is not a belief system and therefore neither nurtures or inspires any of this. If I were such an evil person I would have gotten into this sick state of affairs some other way.

Now, if we consider religion... I'm qualified since I've been there and done that... We know that religion teaches and nurtures both intolerance and the violence to go along with the intolerance. We can find examples of these teachings in biblical scripture. Deut. 13:6-9 is an excellent example. The equivalent can be found in the words of Jesus in Luke 19:27 "And those mine enemies which would not that I should reign over them, bring them hither and slay them before me."

Whether one wishes to argue these words are metaphorical or not is irrelevant since they mean the same thing either literal or metaphorical.

Therefore, religion cannot excuse itself and say that evil acts of intolerance are not of its nurturing or making. The proof is in scripture and it's in many sermons in many churches, synagogues and mosques around the world.

[Edwardo Piet]

Theism doesn't drive people, theistic systems might ...you're on to a loser here Evie

No because that's irrelevant. There are different kinds of theism - there are different religions. These religions drive people.

Atheism is just atheism. It is disbelieving God. It doesn't have subsections that drive people. Unlike theism which does - different forms of theism, different religions: Drive people.

EvF

[fr0d0]

Interesting point SO. When first becoming an atheist I had to stop myself thinking about stabbng people of my old denomination. If I'd been a more naturally driven person and actually stabbed one or more people, my violence would have been atheistically driven would it not? What else could I blame it on?

Look at your own language SO. You blind yourself to the truth. You are a fanatic.

[Edwardo Piet]

Not believing in God doesn't drive you to want to stab people. That was something in you - it's got nothing to with atheism.

Hating religious people also is not part of atheism. You can get very apathetic atheists for example. Or you can get atheists such as myself that hate religion but not religious people.

Disliking religious people isn't atheism, it's anti-theism. And even if you're an anti-theist, you don't necessarily hate theists so much that you want to stab them...

EvF

[Secularone]

Hating religious people also is not part of atheism. You can get very apathetic atheists for example. Or you can get atheists such as myself that hate religion but not religious people.

Disliking religious people isn't atheism, it's anti-theism. And even if you're an anti-theist, you don't necessarily hate theists so much that you want to stab them...

EvF

It seems the religious community is desperate to make atheism something other than a word with the definition "without belief." No. They must willfully lie about it.

My guess is they think it gives them credibility if we're as screwed up as they are.