anyone else here not pro life for the sake of being pro life?

[Walking Void]

You can kill yourself for any reason you deem appropriate upon some reflection. I will not raise an eyebrow at the notion that your life is worth less to you, and therefore worth less in any term of significance, than the risk of suffering another stubbed toe.

You can, yes. But does that mean you should?

I could say the same about living. We give all of these values to life, having children, curing cancer, charity, etc... but there is no reason for anyone to need to think that any sort of conceived good is timeless. For instance, imagine cancer does get cured, is the act of curing cancer encouraged still? Not anymore, because its goal has been met to the end. I see values, worth and such as null. Like atheism, We are born without a belief, and may acquire 1 later on. We are born without value in friendship, but later on acquire that. The individual defines their own worth, so who are We to question their right to live or die as they command it?

This might be my nihilist talking, but meh.

[CapnAwesome]

Whenever you ask "What is the Atheist stance on....." it sounds very strange. Atheists don't have a unified stance on anything. It's not an ideology.

[Tonus]

You can, yes. But does that mean you should?

I have no problem letting each person determine this for himself, as long as he is in his right mind. I don't think I've ever come across a person who, being of sound mind/body, elected to die. We seem mentally geared for survival, and my impression is that even people who are terminal are willing to live their lives to the very end, with few exceptions (usually people who are in terrible pain or unable to do much else than lie motionless in a bed).

A few years ago I spent about five days in the hospital after a fainting spell that resulted in a broken wrist (the concern was over my heart, not the wrist). I shared a room with an elderly man who seemed incapable of anything more than moaning and complaining when he was being handled by hospital staff, whom he fought at every turn with what little strength he possessed. Aside from that he'd lay absolutely still in his bed and metronomically rasp each breath in a low whisper. Aside from the staff I did not see any visitors (my stay was too short to make anything of this, though).

He struck me as someone whose primary agony was that he was still alive. Literally the only physical and vocal effort I ever saw him make was when he was battling with the hospital staff; specifically, he seemed determined to make their jobs tougher. I felt bad for him. Perhaps my impression was wrong and he was clinging to life with all he had? I don't know. I do know that if he were to express his desire to end his life he would have been denied. I don't think he would have wanted to explain if he should or should not die, or whether wanting to die somehow devalued his life or existence.

[Ben Davis]

You can, yes. But does that mean you should?
...

IMO, that should depend entirely on the individual: the state should't mandate that you shouldn't. However the risks of misuse or abuse must be reduced/eliminated by proper education, regulation and support. Society may (and does) have a general disposition towards the value of life (life's precious, life's worth fighting for etc.) which can vary culturally (e.g. Min's point about suicide rituals) but we can probably be assured that a general 'life's preferable to death' theme will run because that's how we've evolved, for survival. But people must have the freedom and unalienable right to govern certain fundamental aspects of their lives themselves. I think the 'right to end one's life' should be amongst them.

The real problem is that the arguments for/against euthanasia are clouded by the piss-poor governmental funding levels for public institutions which could improve people's quality of life, especially vulnerable groups. I say, first provide the medical & social support then we can look at euthanasia on a level playing field.

[Mystical]

Let's just say I'm pro choice here. I'm pretty sure I said that already, in a roundabout way. I'm pro life for myself, but I'm pro choice for others. I'm just willing to fight them on it and I'm willing to talk about the ethics of it. Every dark and dirty detail.

I'm asking for the best argument this side has to offer, and I have yet to find anything (other than the terminally ill or in severe untreatable pain) that would sway someone pro-life, which is what I was not too long ago.

I don't see anyone stopping you from killing yourself, but that said I think if you get to that point you're most likely in need of treatment not death. There are some who meet the reality of a life in utter desolate pain, sufferring, no quality of life, etc. that I agree with in their want to end their life. If there is no quality of life due to the body's inability to ensure it and external inability to provide it: I'd agree with your decision to end it. Otherwise.. If we can talk about it first lets talk about it case by case.

[Violet]

I get really irritated when people say suicide is selfish and wrong and stuff.

Well... it often is selfish, but selfishness is not always a bad thing. Suicide can be an utterly selfless thing too, but issue isn't often had with suicide performed for the sake of others.

That said, it being 'right or wrong' depends on many factors... including who is perceiving said factors. Some people would consider one's suicide to be the right course of action... take the government of a captured spy, for example. Others would be incredibly against it.

Ultimately, suicide is the decision of the one. All I ask when someone is considering suicide is that they consider many things prior to it.

I think suicide is what happens when a person is pushed to a point where he can't take it anymore and just wants the pain to stop.

Or, it might be when one recognizes that they stand to gain little despite great struggle, and they are utterly unsatisfied with what they have.

Or, it might be when one believes another (whom they care about, likely) will gain (or lose) far more (less) from their death... than from their continued existence.

Or, it might be a spur of the moment decision made in haste for any given reason (or absence of such).

Lots of reasons a person might consider killing themselves.

They say "oh u can get psychiatric help" but psychiatric help doesn't always help.

I think under circumstances suicide should be acceptable.

Some say that. There's usually little harm in attempting to live when one wishes to die.

I think that suicide should always be 'acceptable'

For example if I was paralyzed I wouldn't want to live just because everyone who isn't paralyzed tells me I'm coward if I die, its easy for them to be so pro life when they have healthy bodies.

Having a healthy body isn't the same as having a good life. Having an unhealthy body isn't the same as having a poor life. That isn't to say it doesn't affect a life (or even that it affects life little)... but I can very well see a set of circumstances where I'd be plenty happy to live out my life unable to take care of myself.

That said, I consider such to be extremely unlikely.

I really hated in my old Christian communities how they were so pro life for the sake of their morals rather than caring about how Much a person is suffering.

There's more to life than suffering or not suffering. Suffering (current, past, and future) is something to be weighed when considering suicide... but it certainly should not encompass the whole of one's consideration.

What is the atheist stance on suicide/euthanasia? Now I know from my previous thread y'all said atheists don't follow a dogma u guys just don't believe in a god, but seems like u all do agree in what u believe, ie: u all thought holistic medicine was bs.

There is no 'atheist stance' on suicide/euthanasia. Many *humans* subscribe to similar beliefs. I am very likely quite differing from many other's beliefs... and yet most seem able to follow mine (and understand them). We're sort of a race built on being able to empathize

Not all atheists believe holistic medicines to be bullshit.

So how do we feel about euthanasia?

No idea how 'we' feel regarding such... *I* feel next to nothing about euthanasia. I am neither for it, nor against it, as a rule.

Its really frustrating cuz I seem to be the only person in the world who thinks that in many cases suicide is better than living.

Well... you're not I wouldn't personally be here if I didn't have a lover, close friends, and a mother who would all be hurt if I were to, ah, die. Give it a few years, though, and I (hopefully) wouldn't be giving up my continued existence

[Mystical]

You can, yes. But does that mean you should?
...

IMO, that should depend entirely on the individual: the state should't mandate that you shouldn't. However the risks of misuse or abuse must be reduced/eliminated by proper education, regulation and support.

In America it's religion that keeps assisted suicide from being available. Is it that way where you live or is it legal? Is it legal anywhere?

Personally, I wouldn't want tax money going to pay for No-reason suicides. But that's just me. I won't stop payin taxes if the law decided it was right.

[Zazzy]

I STILL want to know where an average person should draw the line when they become aware of a possible suicide attempt. I have intervened in 4 suicidal situations in my life, and 3 of them told me at the time to fuck off and mind my own business, and that it was their choice and that I didn't understand (the other was desperate for intervention). They're all alive today, and 3 of the 4 are doing really well- two got married and have had children since.

What if I had listened to those "fuck yous"? Since I DON'T know what it feels like to be suicidal, how can I know when it's not OK for me to step in and try to help? That was a rhetorical question, because I already know the answer: if I become aware that an otherwise healthy (eg: not a euthanasia situation) person is suicidal, I am GOING to step in and do EVERYTHING I can to prevent that.

I just haven't heard anything in this thread that tells me it's not OK to try.

[Mystical]

I've struggled with that very question, Zazzy. I concluded I'd rather have one pissed off person at me than that person dead. Not for me, mind you--I do the same for strangers as I do for those I love dearly. I hold the value of their life to be equal to mine. I value my life. Their life is equally as valuable except it's theirs, and sometimes our self perceptions are way off base. I see it as being no different than an anorexic--you're just, wrong. I disagree with Walking Void, I don't believe that the value of our life is conditional based on how we ourselves value it. If that were the case we'd have self-righteous bastards running the worl-- oh wait.

[Walking Void]

Missluckie, I myself value all lives the same, but I doubt that You could get everyone to think the same way. It is wishful thinking. It might even be really, really nice, but all lives after all are not of the same quality until We meet some sort of global standard. People think of their own life differently too and You have to respect that. And not in terms of value, I mean in terms of "what". Defining life is not all too clear either, and people will give different answers depending on their own experience. If You really respect me, You would respect the fact that I think my own life is meaningless, but that does not mean that I think that I myself am meaningless or doing meaningless things. I think of my own life as a marionette controlling a husk. And if I had the chance to give up me for something I find treasureable I would.