Libertarian atheists: part of the problem

[EgoRaptor]

I meant with the statement you quoted. Do you believe the current government is a government of the people for the people or not?

We disagree on the other things because you can't seem to accept that the Libertarian party exists and is in no way affiliated with the Tea Party or the Republicans. If I agree that "Libertarians" are the same as the Tea Party and Republicans, then you are correct and I'm not a Libertarian. But, then we have to come to some sort of agreement on what the "Libertarian Party" should be referred to as. In short, your argument is based purely semantics. You think the people who don't call themselves Libertarians are Libertarians, and the people who are calling themselves Libertarians are...something different for which you haven't come up with a word yet.

Conservatives like Ron Paul are not really libertarians, the word for a conservative with some libertarian positions is Fusionist or paleolibertarian.

[TaraJo]

Part of the problem is that history itself argues against libertarian philosophy.

Specifically, you see some really horrible things defended under the banner of states rights. Yes, the civil war was about states rights; specifically, the states' right to reduce human beings into property. A hundred or so years after the bad ol' federal government took that right away from the states, those same southern states were using the same argument (states rights) to defend Jim Crow laws. Once again, the federal government stepped in and said no. They're still crying 'States' rights' whenever they pass one of those absurd restrictions on abortion (Let's make women stand on their head and recite the Declaration of Independence before they're allowed to get an abortion!). I don't doubt for an instant that if the federal government ever started to step in and try to pass same sex marriage laws on a federal level, we'd have them crying states' rights over that, too.

As for economic policy, the case doesn't good there, either. Sure, you learn in business classes how less taxes and less regulations help business, but in reality that isn't working out so well. Most small businesses say their biggest problem isn't taxes or regulations; it's simply a lack of customers and an inability to compete with the big box stores. The ones who want to do away with regulations and taxes are the big corporations. The small businesses just want customers and we need a healthy middle class for those. We had a strong middle class back in the 50's, 60's and 70's. That was when we had strong banking regulations; we scaled those back in the name of libertarianism. We had strong unions, but libertarians don't like unions. We had high taxes, but libertarianism says taxes are alway bad. A lot of that was built up by individuals, sure, but a lot of those individuals were WWII vets who went to school on GI bills; a case could certainly be made for libertarians staying out of WWII, but the GI Bill would be out of the question. Seems to me, if I have to choose between peace and prosperity or libertarianism, I'd rather have the peace and prosperity.

[Ryantology]

I conflict with libertarians because there seems too many obvious reasons why the free market is not the solution to everything. I don't mind paying taxes to help others. Done correctly, it will benefit me in the end.

But, it's also important to disassociate libertarians from anarcho-capitalists, especially since so many Americans who call themselves the former really lean towards the latter. It's even worse since so many of them are inconsistent about it (they sure don't mind having a government big enough to discriminate against the people they hate).

[Zazzy]

Leaving Texas to its own devices is a really, REALLY bad idea.

[TaraJo]

Leaving Texas to its own devices is a really, REALLY bad idea.

Yeah, tell me about it. I'm afraid I'd be dead within a month.

[Cato]

I like many of the ideas discussed at Bleeding Heart Libertarians. "Free markets AND social justice."


bleedingheartlibertarians

[TaraJo]

I like many of the ideas discussed at Bleeding Heart Libertarians. "Free markets AND social justice."


bleedingheartlibertarians

Kinda hard to do both since powerful people tend to manipulate free markets to control social justice in their favor.

[Ryantology]

Kinda hard to do both since powerful people tend to manipulate free markets to control social justice in their favor.

Yeah, and it's hard enough now to stop them. Why would we want to give plutocrats so much untrammeled power that they wouldn't even have to pretend not to be the government?

[TaraJo]

Yeah, and it's hard enough now to stop them. Why would we want to give plutocrats so much untrammeled power that they wouldn't even have to pretend not to be the government?

Yeah, I've heard some arguments for libertarianism (or anarchism, sometimes, which can be pretty similar) that says the government itself helps prop up these big corporations. I might buy that, but first we would have to remove some of the power from those corporations. If the government just abdicated all power right now, I can damn near guarantee you that there would be plenty of corporate powers ready and willing to swoop in and take their place. The difference is, most of us don't get to vote for the leadership of companies.

[Tiberius]

You don't get to vote for the heads of companies, but the point of the free market is that companies are supported by their customers. If enough of their customer base care about their conduct, it hurts their business.