If there is no God....

[fr0d0]

And it can *huzzaa*

Thinking is what is required here chatty and what you refuse to engage in.

[chatpilot]

faith is not thinking but rather the opposite of thinking.

[fr0d0]

Explain that then chatty

[chatpilot]

Simply put as I have said you simply have to believe that God is, and accept his sons tale of death and resurrection leading to redemption to begin your walk with Christ. There is no objective way to prove either of the two assertions made above. You don't start being a Christian by taking up courses on biblical exegesis and deep theology it usually works the other way around. You start with the belief in the teachings and educate yourself on those teachings later.

[fr0d0]

I don't know anyone who became a Christian without serious and extended consideration. Advanced theology isn't the same thing at all, otherwise Christadelphians would automatically be Christians, but they aren't... why? ..because learning the theology alone does not involve the cognition of rationalising faith.

[chatpilot]

Then you don't know fundamentalists. I have seen it many times in the ministry, most people that came to Christ did so because they were either in dire straits or the lord was their last resort. As you know most fundamentalist are literalist and therefore not so biblically sound in their interpretations of scriptures. Also, spontaneity is common place in fundie churches, when they preach they urge people to accept Christ now for tomorrow may be too late. No thought involved just an acceptance of what you are being told and a surrender to Christ right there on the spot.

[fr0d0]

You're changing the subject to fit your theory now chatty. Yes there may be the emotionally vulnerable that people pray upon. What reason though, and that surely is the clincher if a person is to _believe_, does such a cheated person have when they come to their senses to continue in faith? If there is no reason, or you're suggesting mind control etc, then this isn't Christianity and isn't an acceptable argument.

[chatpilot]

Speaking for myself at least when I came to the faith I continued in the faith because I truly believed that I felt the presence and spirit of god within me. Once you get to that point it is hard for someone to convince you that god does not exist. You can be the most illiterate orliterate man on the planet, but once you feel that holy ghost you are caught hook line and sinker.

When I prayed for folks I swear I felt currents of electricity flow through me and into the person I was praying for. They would later come back and tell me that they felt the holy spirit when I laid hands on them etc. I uncovered things about people that I could not possibly have known and prophesied things for individuals in the church that came true when I said they would or shortly after the prophesy. I spoke tongues, cast out demons, and some claimed to have been healed through my prayers. So tell me fr0d0, how could I walk away from that?

Charismatic churches are mostly emotionally based and feeling the so called presence of god and his holy spirit is essential to a fundie. My point being that once you do feel it it's pretty hard to deny it. My path to atheism is a long story but it was a hard road for me to walk on.

[Samson]

All I have to say, is that, there is a reason for over 35,000 "Christian" denominational break off interpretations coming from one book.

The only things they all have in common is the belief in a "Jesus", Virgin Birth, 10 commandments (Which can be interrupted a few different ways) and a place where the naughty resides. (And of course a Heaven, but even that has been debated on its meaning, etc.)

Other than that, both of you are right on the interpretations, and I'm sure both of you are wrong depending on which Christian sect and church that is attended.

It's the main reason I view the Bible as nothing more than a book, with many books, put into it. The Bible should never be debated, but should never be literally believed either, but unfortunately there are too damn many people who believe the Bible to be inspired by a sky dad. If common sense is questioned by someone who takes the Bible literal, then just start backing away really slowly with your hands in-front of you.....

[Autumnlicious]

If there is no God does it matter if people believe in Him?

Yes. Yes it does to me. It matters a lot. To me, believing in a deity and making extraordinary claims sans extraordinary evidence is akin to believing in the invisible pink dragon that breathes smokeless fire on my garage. It is a shared delusion that is used as a rallying point for communities - that is very bad to me, because it places a form of pride in uncritical thought for the community and gives an individual an excuse to be not critical for one of their core beliefs.

So do you have a problem with people believing in God? Of course religion has caused some bad things to happen in the past, but I think what it brings to individual lives out weighs this.

The placebo effect brought on as a side affect of acupuncture and holistic medicines helps people and brings comfort to them. You argue from a "Whats the harm" perspective that is covered routinely from anti-vaccination idjits to the witch burnings in Kenya. It is harmful - it doesn't take a genius to figure out that just because some unexpected good came out from rotten roots doesn't make said "roots" any less rotten.

For me I was close to becoming an atheist not to long ago. Well to be honest I'm not sure if I would have been atheist or simply acting as if there is no God but I decided that if I did lose faith I would try to bring my christian friends along with me on the reasoning that there is hope and purpose in christianity that you can't have in atheism. Not to say you have no hope or purpose in your life, but that it isn't the same.

Wait, what? A lack of belief in something thoroughly unprovable means a lack of hope and purpose? You make no sense - that implies that you can not derive hope and purpose from life, who you are, etc,.

What do you think and why?

I respond with:

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."