Why I am an atheist Jew and a Zionist.

[max-greece]

OH dear - I am not Marx, I am Max and this is the only thread I have ever started on the subject.

Is it the Xmas drinking starting early with you lot?

I mean - WTF?

Sorry I made that mistake. It's early; my brain isn't at 100% yet.

Anyway, the whole Jews/Zionism thing is pretty darn complex. Yes, the persecution they faced when they didn't have their own country is part of the issue. I don't doubt for a second that the persecution in Europe would have continued if they hadn't gotten together and formed Isreal. Now they've just traded one form of conflict with another since they've been in kinda perpetual war with the rest of the middle east. I kinda wonder, what ways would there be for there to really be peace in that region? Or is it even possible? Has Islam gotten such fanatical followers that are so eager to die for Islam that they're actively looking for an opportuniy to martyr themselves and Isreal is just an easy target?

That's OK - give me a rep and I'll forgive you.

Otherwise - great question on lasting peace.

I'd go with - return to the 1948 borders plus the Golan heights (at least until such time as Syria sorts itself out into something resembling a decent country/democracy). Properly set-up a Palestinian state. Move the capital of Israel back to Tel Aviv and turn Jerusalem into an international city guarded by the Swiss - just like they do for the Vatican.

All that in exchange for a peace accord with each of the Arab countries plus Iran with guarantees from them to respect Israel's national sovereignty.

UN peace keeping force employed during the setup. Settlements in occupied territories taken down and half a dozen strong cross border projects to push up employment and get investment in the region.

But that's just me.

Of course neither side would accept it without a big stick/carrot. The US and the Russians would have to work together to provide that.

[TaraJo]

That's OK - give me a rep and I'll forgive you.

Otherwise - great question on lasting peace.

I'd go with - return to the 1948 borders plus the Golan heights (at least until such time as Syria sorts itself out into something resembling a decent country/democracy). Properly set-up a Palestinian state. Move the capital of Israel back to Tel Aviv and turn Jerusalem into an international city guarded by the Swiss - just like they do for the Vatican.

All that in exchange for a peace accord with each of the Arab countries plus Iran with guarantees from them to respect Israel's national sovereignty.

UN peace keeping force employed during the setup. Settlements in occupied territories taken down and half a dozen strong cross border projects to push up employment and get investment in the region.

But that's just me.

Of course neither side would accept it without a big stick/carrot. The US and the Russians would have to work together to provide that.

I like that idea, but I have my doubts about whether or not the Arab states would allow it. They seriously don't strike me as the kind of nations that actually want peace. If they did manage to eliminate Isreal, we'd probably see them pushing for war over the Pakistan/India border or more independence for the areas in Southern Russia or maybe even trying to start shit in Turkey or Africa.

[là bạn điên]

So why don;t tthe Kurds get the same attention that Israel gets? the Kurds have had it far worse than the Palestinians but they are ignored on the whole. the reason? The Muslim world doesn;t care because its Muslims who are the oppressors and the leftists don;t care because the oppressors aren't 'imperialists' (only by their terms of course since the Ottoman empire was self evidently imperialist)

[EgoRaptor]

So why don;t tthe Kurds get the same attention that Israel gets? the Kurds have had it far worse than the Palestinians but they are ignored on the whole. the reason? The Muslim world doesn't care because its Muslims who are the oppressors and the leftists don't care because the oppressors aren't 'imperialists' (only by their terms of course since the Ottoman empire was self evidently imperialist)

Because leftists are hypocritical antisemites who hate the Jews & Israel. I strongly support the Kurds in their struggle against Arab racism.

---

Also, if the Palestinians do get a state then they will simply use it as a base to attack Israel. The Arab savages lost, get over it!

[houseofcantor]

Do I really need to say more?

No. You need to say less. What is it with people, wake up in the morning and go, gee, I'm bored. I know! Self-immolation! Works every time!

[downbeatplumb]

Because leftists are hypocritical antisemites who hate the Jews & Israel.

I am a leftist but I have nothing against jews. I don't tend to hate groups of people unless they do something to justify it for example if someone is a member of a self identifying group of homophobes or racists or homophobes AND racists (its funny how they seem to go hand in hand) then I feel justified in taking against them.

But Jews no. Jews are a disparate group that includes some people that I admire. Some members of this site, Woody Allen, John Stewart and the like.

The creation of Israel however was a bad idea.
Creating a new state that did not have anything in common with its neighbours and displacing the resident population who had labored under the impression that it was their land for he last few hundred years was bound to end badly.

Its only still there because Arabs traditionally don't play well together look how long it took to kick out the crusaders.

[WesOlsen]

[Chas]

<snip>
Happy is the people who's history makes boring reading.

I am not Jewish through choice. I am not able/allowed to recant it.

I need to know there is one country I can always run to in time of greatest need.

I am Atheist.
I am Jewish.
I am Zionist.

Do I really need to say more?

Yes, you do. If you are not practicing Judaism but are living as an atheist, how would I know you are 'Jewish'? How would I know to persecute you?

Why is self-identifying as 'Jewish' important to you?
My ancestry is largely Scots.
Should I identify as a Scot and rabble-rouse or fight for Scottish independence?
Should I hate and fear the English and blame them for persecuting my ancestors?

You don't need to 'recant' anything. You just have to ignore it.
You give up your power as a human being to this tribal nonsense, as well as giving others power over you.

[Faith No More]

As others have pointed out, embracing and entrenching yourself in this tribalistic us vs. them mindset is the problem, not the solution.

[max-greece]