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**max-greece** · December 19, 2013 at 3:20 am

There appears to be a number of people on this forum that simply do not get why I, and others, are unable to renounce our Judiasm.

At the same time they identify the horrors perpetrated by Israel and ask how I, and others can continue to support it.

Over the last couple of days I have, for the first time since joining, been drawn into debates on Judaism and Israel and am seeing a, sadly unsurprising, level of hatred.

I am the first to admit that Israel behaves badly at times. There are a variety of human rights issues that need to be addressed and there are a number of problems with their version of democracy - proportional representation, that allows small, ultra religious groups to hold the balance of power.

I am not going to address all of that here. I am going to address what Israel means to me and probably a huge proportion of other Jews living around the world.

I have said, time and again recently, that I am Jewish not by choice but by the fact of my birth and that this, in and of itself, could be my death sentence. Its a lesson from history. I can run, but I cannot hide.

Am I paranoid? Oh yes - but am I paranoid enough?

To be Jewish is akin to having cancer - its not contagious, but it can kill you.

Now it seems that the holocaust has blinded many here to the history of anti-Semitism. There's rather more to it than that.

Behind the tags is a simple list. It details the date, the place and the event. It covers the period from about 250 AD to the Second World War. It is not complete.

Unfortunately the formatting of the list failed but I think you will get the gist. It looks better at http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles...rsecution/

Happy is the people who's history makes boring reading.

I am not Jewish through choice. I am not able/allowed to recant it.

I need to know there is one country I can always run to in time of greatest need.

I am Atheist.
I am Jewish.
I am Zionist.

Do I really need to say more?

Angrboda · December 19, 2013 at 3:45 am

That's nice, but nobody owes you a Zion. Unfortunately, through white man guilt and other stupids, Israel was born. It's existence is a clusterfuck that should have never happened. That you try to justify your support of it by an appeal to a history of oppression is loathesome. You do not get to oppress others just because you have, or "your people," have been oppressed. You don't see me going around arguing for special rights because of the internment of Japanese citizens in world war two in this country. Study the plight of Native Americans in this country. Study the history of Africa. You are not the only formerly oppressed people in the world, and your belief that the oppression which your ancestors suffered gives you special rights in the world is despicable and ethically bankrupt. That type of thinking led Muslims to fly planes into buildings on 9/11. Are you pro-Al-Qaeda as well?

I like you, you seem like a nice guy, but if you are Zionist and pro-Israel just because of an accident of your birth, well, fuck you.

**max-greece** · (This post was last modified: December 19, 2013 at 4:21 am by max-greece.)

(December 19, 2013 at 3:45 am)rasetsu Wrote:

That's nice, but nobody owes you a Zion.

I didn't say anything about being owed - I have one and it has the means to defend itself.

Quote:Unfortunately, through white man guilt and other stupids, Israel was born. It's existence is a clusterfuck that should have never happened.

Oh - entirely agree - but it did, it exists now and I cannot be sorry about that - I am not that altruistic.

Quote: That you try to justify your support of it by an appeal to a history of oppression is loathesome.

I don't think you got my argument judging by what you have said thus far. I support it because I see a need for it - its personal.

The history of oppression (would that it remain historical) is the reason I see my need, not the justification.

Quote:You do not get to oppress others just because you have, or "your people," have been oppressed.

I am not oppressing anyone. Israel does, for sure, and I do not support it in those actions.

Quote:You don't see me going around arguing for special rights because of the internment of Japanese citizens in world war two in this country.

No - you could always return to Japan if you felt that strongly about it.

Quote:Study the plight of Native Americans in this country. Study the history of Africa. You are not the only formerly oppressed people in the world, and your belief that the oppression which your ancestors suffered gives you special rights in the world is despicable and ethically bankrupt.

Again - no request for special rights have been made. Israel, rightly or wrongly, exists - I wasn't involved in that decision.

I am, however, somewhat mystified by this need to quantify historical suffering in order to undermine, somehow, Jewish suffering. Are you saying Jews would need to have suffered more to have gained Israel? Is there an exchange rate you use for this calculation? If others have suffered historically and maybe still are doing does that mean you think Jews should be too?

Quote:That type of thinking led Muslims to fly planes into buildings on 9/11. Are you pro-Al-Qaeda as well?

Erm......no. Religious indoctrination and brain-washing led Muslims to fly into buildings on 9/11.

Quote:I like you, you seem like a nice guy, but if you are Zionist and pro-Israel just because of an accident of your birth, well, fuck you.

Thank you and fuck you too.

Angrboda · (This post was last modified: December 19, 2013 at 4:38 am by Angrboda.)

Ah yes, the Nuremberg defense. Fitting that a Jew would appeal to it to justify his ethically bankrupt worldview.

Quote:"The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him."

Nuremberg Principles, Principle IV

(December 19, 2013 at 4:20 am)max-greece Wrote:
Quote:That type of thinking led Muslims to fly planes into buildings on 9/11. Are you pro-Al-Qaeda as well?

Erm......no. Religious indoctrination and brain-washing led Muslims to fly into buildings on 9/11.

If you're really this ignorant, I pity you. But I rather suspect your ignorance of the causes of 9/11 reflects a more crass motive, namely enlightened self-interest.

**max-greece** · December 19, 2013 at 4:52 am

You got a Nuremberg defence from what I said? Wow.

Take a chill pill - you need one.

~~feeling~~ · (This post was last modified: December 19, 2013 at 7:06 am by feeling.)

Quote:Thank you and fuck you too.

rofl

Anyway I like Israel and I hope it bombs the shit out of it's neighbours.

KichigaiNeko · December 19, 2013 at 7:16 am

Personally?

I think it is about time "the Jews" got over themselves and moved on.

Everything about their "traditions" is quaint and not necessarily pertinent to this day and age. Don't care and will NOT give you special privilege.

Get over it, and deal with the real world.

TaraJo · December 19, 2013 at 8:39 am

I don't hate Jews, I hate fundamentalists. I hate fundamentalists of any ilk. Specifically, if you're so into something that you can't critique it or question it or look at it from a different perspective, I probably won't get along with you talking about it one-sidedly.

And I've certainly gotten into it with others who are incredibly one-sided on other issues. I've had words with extremely one-sided feminists, even though I support gender equality and I'm pro-choice.

I've argued with one-sided anarchists and other political fundamentalists.

And, yes, when you type, lately, it's always about the Jews. Hell, I look through the last few threads you started and most of them are about the Jews and Isreal (including the mind-numbingly stupid post suggesting war reparations from Germany). Not to mention, your hate of Arabs and Islam is comperable only to the hate you see coming from Isreals political leaders. In fact, I can't believe I found someone who actually seemed to cross the line from "legitimate criticism of Islam" into "genuine islamophobia" but you seem to have done it. Good job!

**max-greece** · December 19, 2013 at 9:00 am

(December 19, 2013 at 8:39 am)TaraJo Wrote: I don't hate Jews, I hate fundamentalists. I hate fundamentalists of any ilk. Specifically, if you're so into something that you can't critique it or question it or look at it from a different perspective, I probably won't get along with you talking about it one-sidedly.

And I've certainly gotten into it with others who are incredibly one-sided on other issues. I've had words with extremely one-sided feminists, even though I support gender equality and I'm pro-choice.

I've argued with one-sided anarchists and other political fundamentalists.

And, yes, when you type, lately, it's always about the Jews. Hell, I look through the last few threads you started and most of them are about the Jews and Isreal (including the mind-numbingly stupid post suggesting war reparations from Germany). Not to mention, your hate of Arabs and Islam is comperable only to the hate you see coming from Isreals political leaders. In fact, I can't believe I found someone who actually seemed to cross the line from "legitimate criticism of Islam" into "genuine islamophobia" but you seem to have done it. Good job!

OH dear - I am not Marx, I am Max and this is the only thread I have ever started on the subject.

Is it the Xmas drinking starting early with you lot?

I mean - WTF?

TaraJo · December 19, 2013 at 9:15 am

(December 19, 2013 at 9:00 am)max-greece Wrote: OH dear - I am not Marx, I am Max and this is the only thread I have ever started on the subject.

Is it the Xmas drinking starting early with you lot?

I mean - WTF?

Sorry I made that mistake. It's early; my brain isn't at 100% yet. Sad

Anyway, the whole Jews/Zionism thing is pretty darn complex. Yes, the persecution they faced when they didn't have their own country is part of the issue. I don't doubt for a second that the persecution in Europe would have continued if they hadn't gotten together and formed Isreal. Now they've just traded one form of conflict with another since they've been in kinda perpetual war with the rest of the middle east. I kinda wonder, what ways would there be for there to really be peace in that region? Or is it even possible? Has Islam gotten such fanatical followers that are so eager to die for Islam that they're actively looking for an opportuniy to martyr themselves and Isreal is just an easy target?

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