Is the universe God?

[Alex K]

I was trying to make the point that either everything was either created or it always existed. So if everything that is material hasn't always existed, then it came into existence at some point from nothing (or maybe something non-material). So either it created itself or something non-material created it. When I spoke of God I was speaking of the characteristics of the christian God. You could assume it was something beyond what the universe is made from. The point is that it points to something other than the material world.

Have you even tried to read+comprehend what others and I have written?

Far from. What do you mean by "come into being" when there is no preexisting Universe in which a temporal process can take place?
The problem here is also, when you say the Universe has a beginning, you talk about time as measured by the timeline within the universe. This does not allow you to draw conclusions about the origin of the universe or time itself.

Your separation into material world and "something other" is completely bogus as well. If it has any interaction with the known material world, it is part of the material world, but with a new kind of physics. If it doesn't have an interaction with the known material world, well, then it doesn't.

What I'm trying to do is open closed-minded people to the possibility that something may well exist that is beyond the scope of our ability to find it through scientific discovery.

That is obvious already to anyone doing a bit of science. For example, everything beyond the horizon 50 billion lightyears away is now probably causally disconnected forever, and we will never find out what is going on there. It is possible that my favourite interpretation of quantum mechanics, Everett's relative state formulation, really is realized in nature. Will we ever be able to even in principle find out whether it is truly so? Maybe not.

Why is it not possible that a non-corporeal being could reveal himself to humanity?

It sounds like it is perfectly possible if you find a sensible definition of non-corporeal, there's just no evidence for it whatsoever that such a thing has occurred. That is a most important point.

I could for example claim that an invisible crow (his name is Prometheus, ironically) is sitting on my left shoulder and is going to feast on the liver of every dead soul (forever) who doesn't give me 10000 Dollars, giving you unimaginable agony in all eternity. It's true I swear, pn me for details for the money transfer. Don't believe me? Well, maybe because there is not a shred of evidence for it, and you're being a good skeptic all the sudden.


Your fuzzy word games about origins and so on are meaningless because of what I and others have said above, and do not allow any conclusions about God.

[Lek]

Calm down my fuzzy little man peach and take a deep breath.

Fuzzy little man peach!? Now you really got me mad!

[Whateverist]

Here trying to open some minds, Lek? You might want to begin with your own. To start, try responding to those who have been posting with you in such a way as to let them know you understand the points they've brought up. Then comment on how far you may be from agreeing with them and why. Then look for a graceful way to segue back to your own points. You'll find others more likely to respond in kind.

Now go out there and our minds open, you little man peach!

[Tonus]

What I'm trying to do is open closed-minded people to the possibility that something may well exist that is beyond the scope of our ability to find it through scientific discovery.

I suspect that from this point, we will begin to discuss other methods of "finding" this otherwise undetectable being. Which would be useful if there was one method that always worked unequivocally versus other methods that never did. But that's not the case, as the various religions and cults and other similar belief systems attest to, many of them with their own ways of getting into contact with that magic being. And those methods inevitably rely on a dizzying array of rules of conduct and specific practices that coincidentally guarantee that you can easily dismiss claims from anyone who doesn't "find" this being.

So either he's not there, or he discovered a cure for boredom and has spent the last few thousand years laughing his undetectable ass off.

[Lek]

Here trying to open some minds, Lek? You might want to begin with your own. To start, try responding to those who have been posting with you in such a way as to let them know you understand the points they've brought up. Then comment on how far you may be from agreeing with them and why. Then look for a graceful way to segue back to your own points. You'll find others more likely to respond in kind.

Now go out there and our minds open, you little man peach!

Ok. I hear you. Gotta go to work, but I promise I'll be back to answer comments.

[EvolutionKills]

When I talk about the universe, I'm refering to any material thing that ever existed. Now try to wrap your brain around this. I think that we can all agree that either the universe always existed or it came into being at some time from the nothing that was already there. According to christians and many other theists God was not created. He always existed and has the power to create the universe. So either the universe always existed with no beginning or else it created itself, both of which require qualities of God.

God can be anything you choose to define it as. God could be a half eaten block of creme cheese in my fridge, if I simply define god as the half eaten block of creme cheese in said fridge. That doesn't mean it makes any sense or provides evidence for the existence of the super-natural or an uncaused first-cause.

[Lek]

Okay, so first of all, "created or always existed" is a false dichotomy, since it fails to take into account all other possibilities, like "arose naturally over time." Just off the top of my head.

Arising naturally over time from what? Something, whatever it is, had to always exist or it came into being at some time. I did state that one of the possibilities was that the universe always existed. Or maybe what the universe came from something that always existed. But science can't answer that question.

Second of all, adding "something non material" as a possibility, then you haven't justified that at all, nor even eliminated the other prong (eternal) of your original false dichotomy, means you're now attempting to force new components of your argument in with no rationale at all. You're trying to cash checks that your argument hasn't even attempted to write, yet.

Like I said, I didn't try to rule out the possibility of the universe always existing. What I said was that the material universe always existed or it created itself from nothing. I guess it could have been created from something else, but something had to be first.

Third, you can't get from "something immaterial," to "christian god," no matter how had you try. As has been rightly pointed out to you, you can't just define your god into existence by stripping everything meaningful away from the concept in order to get us to accept it, and then slipping all the religious stuff under the door once you've gotten people to say yes.

What I said was that if the universe that created itself, it shares a characteristic with the christian God.

You're trying to turn your religion into the fine print on the deistic god you want everyone to accept. It's not going to work.

I wasn't trying to do that. I was trying to open people up to the very real possibilty that God could exist and that scientific discovery isn't the only path to knowing that.

[Cyberman]

What I said was that if the universe that created itself, it shares a characteristic with the christian God.

Only because that is a characteristic that has been defined as belonging to the xtian god. Can you demonstrate that this god - any god - actually has this characteristic in reality? That's the stumbling block that you must overcome before any meaningful traction can possibly happen on this point.

[max-greece]

What I said was that if the universe that created itself, it shares a characteristic with the christian God.

Actually it shares another characteristic too - namely no discernible intelligence of its own.

[The Reality Salesman01]

Calm down my fuzzy little man peach and take a deep breath.

Fuzzy little man peach!? Now you really got me mad!

It's attached to your rod, mother-licker!