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"There remain four irreducible objections to religious faith: that it wholly misrepresents the origins of man and the cosmos, that because of this original error it manages to combine the maximum servility with the maximum of solipsism, that it is both the result and the cause of dangerous sexual repression, and that it is ultimately grounded on wish-thinking." ~Christopher Hitchens, god is not Great
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(March 6, 2014 at 7:18 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: Okay. My pick >> You need to prove why you believe the Bible is a credible source to establishing the existence of God. (The One and Only God, using your terminology)
How about this for a debate topic:
"Has God raised Jesus from the dead?"
The topic is concise and when defended, will satisfy your request for both demonstration of the reliability of the ancient biographies of Jesus's life as well as demonstrating via inference to the best explanation that God did in fact raise Jesus from the dead as the climactic event of His ministry and thereby furnishing proof that He was God incarnate.
If we agree on the topic, I assume you will seek to refute this and I will seek to affirm it.
(March 6, 2014 at 7:20 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: Hearsay is not proof. Fables passed down through the centuries is not proof. You believe it so it must be true, is not proof. You learned it from Bible scholars, is not proof.
Just so we're on the same page. lol
I will be using historical documents and eyewitness accounts to support my arguments.
I will not be using hearsay or fables to support my case.
I will not say I believe it therefore it must be true to support my case.
The research, scholarly articles and publications of New Testament scholars will be used when needed as support for my case.
That has more assumptions than grains of sand on a beach.
The first is that such a being as "God" exists. Since he has never shown himself or done anything godly the evidence is that he doesn't exist.
The second is that the Jesus character as depicted in the New Testament existed. There's no independent unbiased evidence that such a person existed and did the things he supposedly did. The story is on a par with fictional characters such as Tarzan.
The third is that since there's no evidence that the "Jesus" character existed there's no reason to believe that a non-existent "God" character raised a fictional "Jesus" character from the dead. Such things don't happen in real life. But they do happen all the time in fiction with imaginary characters.
Even Paul, the guy who created the Jesus character, said that if people aren't raised from the dead that his story was pure BS. He presented no real evidence to support his fairy tale. Instead he simply claimed that a crowd of imaginary people had witnessed it.
March 6, 2014 at 8:23 pm (This post was last modified: March 6, 2014 at 8:25 pm by *Deidre*.)
(March 6, 2014 at 8:15 pm)discipulus Wrote:
(March 6, 2014 at 8:14 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: You've already got yourself in a bit of a bind, mate. There are no '...ancient biographies of Jesus's [sic] life...'. Not a single one.
Boru
There are four actually.
(whispers) pssst....remember that word 'credible?' lol
The Gospels are not credible, if we're talking about basically four dudes, whom no one has ever met, talking about their life with Jesus, whom no one has ever met. (and there's no evidence showing that they ever existed) Unlike say dinosaurs. Or Neanderthals. No one has met either, but...there's credible evidence to support their existence. There is none when it comes to the Bible. Which is why faith is believing in something unseen. I'm willing to listen, but only to credible accounts.
CREDIBLE.
Tell us why you believe the Gospels to be credible, might be worth debating.
I go crazy when someone says that an empty tomb is evidence that jesus was resurrected. .. my tooth missing from under my pillow is not evidene that there is a tooth fairy...
(March 6, 2014 at 8:15 pm)discipulus Wrote: There are four actually.
(whispers) pssst....remember that word 'credible?' lol
The Gospels are not credible, if we're talking about basically four dudes, whom no one has ever met, talking about their life with Jesus, whom no one has ever met. (and there's no evidence showing that they ever existed) Unlike say dinosaurs. Or Neanderthals. No one has met either, but...there's credible evidence to support their existence. There is none when it comes to the Bible. Which is why faith is believing in something unseen. I'm willing to listen, but only to credible accounts.
CREDIBLE.
Tell us why you believe the Gospels to be credible, might be worth debating.
The Gospels and the Islamic hadiths are identical in one major aspect. They were all written by people far removed in time from the events that their protagonists supposedly did. The Gospels were written decades later and the hadiths were written over a hundred and more years after Mohammed supposedly fluttered across the Arabian desert. Yet they both contain detailed conversations that no one would know about even if such characters had actually lived.
March 6, 2014 at 8:32 pm (This post was last modified: March 6, 2014 at 8:34 pm by Whateverist.)
(March 6, 2014 at 7:45 pm)discipulus Wrote:
(March 6, 2014 at 7:18 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: Okay. My pick >> You need to prove why you believe the Bible is a credible source to establishing the existence of God. (The One and Only God, using your terminology)
How about this for a debate topic:
"Has God raised Jesus from the dead?"
Well that sure inserts some highly suspect stuff right in the question. What God? Jesus the historical person, or, Jesus about whom so many hysterical claims are made?
(March 6, 2014 at 8:19 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: The Bible is one entire book.
No ma'am. It is not. It is a compilation of historical narratives, poems, didactic teachings, prose, apocalyptic literature, epistles, ancient biographies, wisdom literature, short correspondences, antiquarian history etc. etc.
There are sixty six individual "books" that comprise the collection. "Books" here is the term referred to the individual constituents irrespective of their particular genre.
(March 6, 2014 at 8:19 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: Why are we 'starting' with the Gospels?
The biographies of Jesus's life are where we start to ascertain the facts about Jesus. Why would we start at Genesis or anywhere else?
(March 6, 2014 at 8:19 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: The entire OT, if you believe it, is a foreshadowing of the NT.
Who told you that?
(March 6, 2014 at 8:19 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: Yet, many Christians cherry pick this or that, as to what they believe out of the OT,
So what if they do? What has that got to do with me defending the assertion that God raised Jesus from the dead?
(March 6, 2014 at 8:19 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: I guess because God was a bad guy in that section of the book. But, when we get to the 'Gospels,' he becomes a man, and is now a kind compassionate benefactor of mankind.
This is immaterial to the debate topic Deidre.
(March 6, 2014 at 8:19 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: Is God both a sadist, and also Jesus, a kind Savior to all? If so, how do you reconcile the two sections of the Bible, OT and NT?
Do you believe the Bible in its entirety, and if so...what is your proof that the Bible is a credible source of God's existence?
It all comes back to MY topic.
In other words, why do you wish to start with the Gospels?
**I'm wondering if an actual debate will ever ensue.
I am glad I asked you what I did before agreeing to a debate. Your real issue is with what you perceive to be inconsistencies with God's character when comparing the OT to the NT.
I believe the Bible in its entirety which means that I believe all sixty six books were inspired by God and give us a progressive revelation of the will and plan of God for mankind.
I am arguing that Jesus was a man who claimed to be God in the flesh. We have four biographies which we go to for insight into this claim. We have accounts of Him being raised from the dead. This is the crucial matter upon which Christianity rests.
It does not make much since to go to Ecclesiastes or Genesis or 1 Kings if we are trying to ascertain the facts regarding Jesus of Nazareth.
(March 6, 2014 at 8:14 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: You've already got yourself in a bit of a bind, mate. There are no '...ancient biographies of Jesus's [sic] life...'. Not a single one.
Boru
There are four actually.
Sorry, no. The Gospels are not biographies in any meaningful sense of the word. Since they are based on oral tradition, they are more akin to folk tales or hagiographies. They have no supportive independent sources, they aren't a terribly informative source about life in 1st century Judea, and were written long after the events they purport to depict.
Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
