Debate with a Christian

[discipulus]

No difference would be a 'book' written by a team of people trying to convince the world that Big Foot exists. Throw in a little truth, and maybe some will buy it. But, the book will be based on hearsay, people who claim they've seen Big Foot, but of course, they have no reliable pictures, or footage. They only have their ''story.'' No witnesses of course.

I'm waiting for it to become a religion.

---

So you are not aware that there exist references of Jesus and His crucifixion outside of the Bible?

Is this what you are saying?

Can you post the reference here? I'll look at it.

Dr. Edwin Masao Yamauchi is a Japanese American historian, editor and academic. He is Professor Emeritus of History at Miami University, where he taught from 1969 until 2005. Dr. Yamauchi when speaking of the Roman historian Tacitus' reference of Jesus sums up the reference by concluding that it is probably the single most important reference to Jesus Christ outside of the bible. Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:

Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .{1}

What all can we learn from this ancient (and rather unsympathetic) reference to Jesus and the early Christians? Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin), or Christ. He is said to have "suffered the extreme penalty," obviously alluding to the Roman method of execution known as crucifixion. This is said to have occurred during the reign of Tiberius and by the sentence of Pontius Pilatus. This confirms much of what the Gospels tell us about the death of Jesus.

1- Tacitus, Annals 15.44

[Jacob(smooth)]

Meanwhile, I've pm'd an admin (rayaan) to set up a debate in the debate forum. Me and discipulus on the topic

"Are the gospels are reliable biographies of the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth."

The only rules I would request are

1. No appeals to authority (eg" most scholars agree") without reference
2. After introductory statements, one point at a time please. I hate those overlong rambling posts with 15 points being argued at a time.

In order to determine where I need to begin my case, I need to ask you your views regarding certain aspects of the gospels.

This question is with regards to your view on the reliability of the textual transmission of the gospels and NT in general. This subject is what is known as bibliography. C. Sanders, in Introduction to Research in English Literary History -https://archive.org/details/introductiontore030300mbp , lists and explains the three basic principles of historiography. They are: the bibliographical test, the internal evidence test, and lastly, the external evidence test.

Is it your view that the gospels as found in the latest edition (Edition 28) Of the Novum Testamentum Graece (Nestle-Aland) are reliable copies of the original gospel autographs?

Yes or no? If not, then our debate needs to be on "Do the N.T. writings pass the bibliographical test used by historians?"

I'm happy to confine our debate to internal consistency and concordance with external evidence. I do have issues with the transmission of the original document to the present day translations but purely for the sake of keeping the debate in the more interesting areas, I'm happy to concede that the gospels we have are verbatim copies of the original texts.

[The Valkyrie]

No difference would be a 'book' written by a team of people trying to convince the world that Big Foot exists. Throw in a little truth, and maybe some will buy it. But, the book will be based on hearsay, people who claim they've seen Big Foot, but of course, they have no reliable pictures, or footage. They only have their ''story.'' No witnesses of course.

I'm waiting for it to become a religion.

---

Can you post the reference here? I'll look at it.

Dr. Edwin Masao Yamauchi is a Japanese American historian, editor and academic. He is Professor Emeritus of History at Miami University, where he taught from 1969 until 2005. Dr. Yamauchi when speaking of the Roman historian Tacitus' reference of Jesus sums up the reference by concluding that it is probably the single most important reference to Jesus Christ outside of the bible. Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:

Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .{1}

What all can we learn from this ancient (and rather unsympathetic) reference to Jesus and the early Christians? Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin), or Christ. He is said to have "suffered the extreme penalty," obviously alluding to the Roman method of execution known as crucifixion. This is said to have occurred during the reign of Tiberius and by the sentence of Pontius Pilatus. This confirms much of what the Gospels tell us about the death of Jesus.

1- Tacitus, Annals 15.44

"Publius (or Gaius) Cornelius Tacitus (/ˈtæsɪtʊs/; c. AD 56 – after 117)"

AS we say, there are no CONTEMPORARY citations for the life of Jesus outside the bible.

[discipulus]

Dr. Edwin Masao Yamauchi is a Japanese American historian, editor and academic. He is Professor Emeritus of History at Miami University, where he taught from 1969 until 2005. Dr. Yamauchi when speaking of the Roman historian Tacitus' reference of Jesus sums up the reference by concluding that it is probably the single most important reference to Jesus Christ outside of the bible. Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:

Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .{1}

What all can we learn from this ancient (and rather unsympathetic) reference to Jesus and the early Christians? Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin), or Christ. He is said to have "suffered the extreme penalty," obviously alluding to the Roman method of execution known as crucifixion. This is said to have occurred during the reign of Tiberius and by the sentence of Pontius Pilatus. This confirms much of what the Gospels tell us about the death of Jesus.

1- Tacitus, Annals 15.44

"Publius (or Gaius) Cornelius Tacitus (/ˈtæsɪtʊs/; c. AD 56 – after 117)"

AS we say, there are no CONTEMPORARY citations for the life of Jesus outside the bible.

LOL....this is a favorite mainline of internet infidels....

No academic would use it, but I will humor you by asking.....

So what? What reference do you have regarding the historiographical methodology that can substantiate your assertion that a necessary condition of historical reliability of an account of someone's life is that there be contemporaneous accounts of said person?

[Mudhammam]

Deidre, you've been owned...twice!
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/yeti.aspx

I linked to the encyclopedia of World Biography

You linked to the encyclopedia of World Occultism

See the difference my friend?

Go ahead, click on the Oxford encyclopedia tab. Yeti is still there... so he must be real. :p

[*Deidre*]

No difference would be a 'book' written by a team of people trying to convince the world that Big Foot exists. Throw in a little truth, and maybe some will buy it. But, the book will be based on hearsay, people who claim they've seen Big Foot, but of course, they have no reliable pictures, or footage. They only have their ''story.'' No witnesses of course.

I'm waiting for it to become a religion.

---

Can you post the reference here? I'll look at it.

Dr. Edwin Masao Yamauchi is a Japanese American historian, editor and academic. He is Professor Emeritus of History at Miami University, where he taught from 1969 until 2005. Dr. Yamauchi when speaking of the Roman historian Tacitus' reference of Jesus sums up the reference by concluding that it is probably the single most important reference to Jesus Christ outside of the bible. Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:

Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .{1}

What all can we learn from this ancient (and rather unsympathetic) reference to Jesus and the early Christians? Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin), or Christ. He is said to have "suffered the extreme penalty," obviously alluding to the Roman method of execution known as crucifixion. This is said to have occurred during the reign of Tiberius and by the sentence of Pontius Pilatus. This confirms much of what the Gospels tell us about the death of Jesus.

1- Tacitus, Annals 15.44

I just did further research, and I'd accept this as the closest reliable resource (non religious) for proving that Jesus (the man) existed, and was crucified. I did say early on, that he may have existed, but it couldn't be proven without a reliable objective resource. This might be as close as we get to that end. So.....thank you.

[Mudhammam]

No difference would be a 'book' written by a team of people trying to convince the world that Big Foot exists. Throw in a little truth, and maybe some will buy it. But, the book will be based on hearsay, people who claim they've seen Big Foot, but of course, they have no reliable pictures, or footage. They only have their ''story.'' No witnesses of course.

I'm waiting for it to become a religion.

---

Can you post the reference here? I'll look at it.

Dr. Edwin Masao Yamauchi is a Japanese American historian, editor and academic. He is Professor Emeritus of History at Miami University, where he taught from 1969 until 2005. Dr. Yamauchi when speaking of the Roman historian Tacitus' reference of Jesus sums up the reference by concluding that it is probably the single most important reference to Jesus Christ outside of the bible. Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:

Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .{1}

What all can we learn from this ancient (and rather unsympathetic) reference to Jesus and the early Christians? Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin), or Christ. He is said to have "suffered the extreme penalty," obviously alluding to the Roman method of execution known as crucifixion. This is said to have occurred during the reign of Tiberius and by the sentence of Pontius Pilatus. This confirms much of what the Gospels tell us about the death of Jesus.

1- Tacitus, Annals 15.44

Tacitus reports what he heard people saying at the time, nothing of which is very useful to your case. Jesus lived and died. Cool story bro.

*yawn*

You'll have to try harder than simply referring to your Lee Strobel books.

[*Deidre*]

I linked to the encyclopedia of World Biography

You linked to the encyclopedia of World Occultism

See the difference my friend?

Go ahead, click on the Oxford encyclopedia tab. Yeti is still there... so he must be real. :p

Based on what he posted, it would stand to reason that it's the closest to an objective resource that I've ever seen. That anyone has ever seen, when you read through it. It certainly doesn't say with certainty who Jesus was, and the details of his life. That is still left up to interpretation, but it could serve as a decent resource for verifying that a man named Jesus might have existed and was crucified, and that he had a following. That's the part I found curious.

---

Dr. Edwin Masao Yamauchi is a Japanese American historian, editor and academic. He is Professor Emeritus of History at Miami University, where he taught from 1969 until 2005. Dr. Yamauchi when speaking of the Roman historian Tacitus' reference of Jesus sums up the reference by concluding that it is probably the single most important reference to Jesus Christ outside of the bible. Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:

Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .{1}

What all can we learn from this ancient (and rather unsympathetic) reference to Jesus and the early Christians? Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin), or Christ. He is said to have "suffered the extreme penalty," obviously alluding to the Roman method of execution known as crucifixion. This is said to have occurred during the reign of Tiberius and by the sentence of Pontius Pilatus. This confirms much of what the Gospels tell us about the death of Jesus.

1- Tacitus, Annals 15.44

Tacitus reports what he heard people saying at the time, nothing of which is very useful to your case. Jesus lived and died. Cool story bro.

*yawn*

You'll have to try harder than simply referring to your Lee Strobel books.

That's true too. I need a nap. lol

You are trying discipulus...and for that, I commend you. :=)

[discipulus]

Dr. Edwin Masao Yamauchi is a Japanese American historian, editor and academic. He is Professor Emeritus of History at Miami University, where he taught from 1969 until 2005. Dr. Yamauchi when speaking of the Roman historian Tacitus' reference of Jesus sums up the reference by concluding that it is probably the single most important reference to Jesus Christ outside of the bible. Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:

Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .{1}

What all can we learn from this ancient (and rather unsympathetic) reference to Jesus and the early Christians? Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin), or Christ. He is said to have "suffered the extreme penalty," obviously alluding to the Roman method of execution known as crucifixion. This is said to have occurred during the reign of Tiberius and by the sentence of Pontius Pilatus. This confirms much of what the Gospels tell us about the death of Jesus.

1- Tacitus, Annals 15.44

Tacitus reports what he heard people saying at the time, nothing of which is very useful to your case.

*yawn*

You'll have to try harder than simply referring to your Lee Strobel books.

Tacitus is not Lee Strobel.

Tacitus was a historian. Most think one of the best of his time. If you have to dismiss his writings in order to maintain your views, then maybe you need to think about changing your views.

[Mudhammam]

Go ahead, click on the Oxford encyclopedia tab. Yeti is still there... so he must be real. :p

Based on what he posted, it would stand to reason that it's the closest to an objective resource that I've ever seen. That anyone has ever seen, when you read through it. It certainly doesn't say with certainty who Jesus was, and the details of his life. That is still left up to interpretation, but it could serve as a decent resource for verifying that a man named Jesus might have existed and was crucified, and that he had a following. That's the part I found curious.

Yes but depending on who or what Tacitus used as his source(s), he's might as well be merely saying that there's a group of people who claim so and so is their leader and this is how he allegedly died. It's just hearsay.