Apologists and the bible

[sven]

This is a shorter version of an earlier post by me:

"I have a very good friend who is a very intelligent person.. He is a doctor of state sciences and has taught for several years at Oxford University. He is currently teaching at Lund university. He is also a chess master and once beat me at chess blindfolded.
I was shocked when he let himself be baptised into the Catholic church some years ago. (He has since converted to protestantism)
I thought that he shared my atheist views. I was surprised that someone who has spent his entire life subscribing to the idea of empirical evidence would suddenly become a member of the Catholic church, which has spent many centuries working against a logical, rational world view.

Some time ago the subject came up again and I couldn't keep quiet. I said to him that I saw no evidence that god existed, and that I strongly believe that organized religion does more harm than good. He was quite slippery about it and presented a lot of arguments that I have since found to be somewhat similar to what some christian apologists use.
I have to stress that I have very little hope of somehow turning my friend into an atheist. I just want to plant a seed in his mind, since I think he is wasting his time on something that I think is wrong, and simply put just plain false.
We discussed what I feel are the various wrongdoings of the catholic church. The subject of pedophilia came up. He refused to acknowledge my arguments that sexual child abuse by catholic priests was a sign that there is something fundamentally wrong with not just the catholic church, but with all of christianity.
His response was to blame the individual priests, and to say that the blame for this should be placed on humanity itself. This comes of course from a very christian point of view...
He also washed his hands by saying that he had left the Catholic church."

I continued the discussion with my friend on the phone today. He continued to argue like an apologist and one of the things we discussed was this moral contradiction in the bible:

In Exodus 11:4–6 God says that every firstborn in Egypt will die. There can be few other interpretations: God kills them.

Later, in Exodus 24:16-18 (I think) Moses receives the ten commandments from God. One is 'Thou shalt not kill'.

It seems every story in the bible becomes allegorical, or some sort of 'saga' that is supposed to teach us about life, morals and ethics in some roundabout way, when apologists defend christianity. But when you look at the bible it is so full of factual, moral and ethical contradictions that there seems to be very little left to base a sound, modern belief on. If you are a rational, decent human being that is.
That being said I sometimes wonder what apologists of this kind base their beliefs on, since they often seem to think that human beings are unable to form ethical and moral opinions under their own volition.

[truthBtold]

This is a shorter version of an earlier post by me:

"I have a very good friend who is a very intelligent person.. He is a doctor of state sciences and has taught for several years at Oxford University. He is currently teaching at Lund university. He is also a chess master and once beat me at chess blindfolded.
I was shocked when he let himself be baptised into the Catholic church some years ago. (He has since converted to protestantism)
I thought that he shared my atheist views. I was surprised that someone who has spent his entire life subscribing to the idea of empirical evidence would suddenly become a member of the Catholic church, which has spent many centuries working against a logical, rational world view.

Some time ago the subject came up again and I couldn't keep quiet. I said to him that I saw no evidence that god existed, and that I strongly believe that organized religion does more harm than good. He was quite slippery about it and presented a lot of arguments that I have since found to be somewhat similar to what some christian apologists use.
I have to stress that I have very little hope of somehow turning my friend into an atheist. I just want to plant a seed in his mind, since I think he is wasting his time on something that I think is wrong, and simply put just plain false.
We discussed what I feel are the various wrongdoings of the catholic church. The subject of pedophilia came up. He refused to acknowledge my arguments that sexual child abuse by catholic priests was a sign that there is something fundamentally wrong with not just the catholic church, but with all of christianity.
His response was to blame the individual priests, and to say that the blame for this should be placed on humanity itself. This comes of course from a very christian point of view...
He also washed his hands by saying that he had left the Catholic church."

I continued the discussion with my friend on the phone today. He continued to argue like an apologist and one of the things we discussed was this moral contradiction in the bible:

In Exodus 11:4–6 God says that every firstborn in Egypt will die. There can be few other interpretations: God kills them.

Later, in Exodus 24:16-18 (I think) Moses receives the ten commandments from God. One is 'Thou shalt not kill'.

It seems every story in the bible becomes allegorical, or some sort of 'saga' that is supposed to teach us about life, morals and ethics in some roundabout way, when apologists defend christianity. But when you look at the bible it is so full of factual, moral and ethical contradictions that there seems to be very little left to base a sound, modern belief on. If you are a rational, decent human being that is.
That being said I sometimes wonder what apologists of this kind base their beliefs on, since they often seem to think that human beings are unable to form ethical and moral opinion under their own volition.

Ur friend blows

[Minimalist]

Having degrees after his name is no assurance that your friend is not an idiot. Some people can't stand the idea that they are all on their own in the universe. A god makes them feel special so they invent one.

[Cinjin]

It seems every story in the bible becomes allegorical, or some sort of 'saga' that is supposed to teach us about life, morals and ethics in some roundabout way, when apologists defend christianity. But when you look at the bible it is so full of factual, moral and ethical contradictions that there seems to be very little left to base a sound, modern belief on. If you are a rational, decent human being that is.
That being said I sometimes wonder what apologists of this kind base their beliefs on, since they often seem to think that human beings are unable to form ethical and moral opinions under their own volition.

Apologists are nothing more than filthy vile scum. They get off on doing the sort of mental contortions and verbal gymnastics that would make a pretzel barf and for every Drich in the world, there's four more fundamentalists who would gladly burn him for his heresy. Attempting to understand, or worse yet - rationalize their position is an exercise in futility. Oh and if you want proof that apologists are only chasing after their own agenda and have no true interest in furthering Christianity, just watch what happens when one shows up here. Whenever one of those filthy fuckers shoots off his mouth on these forums, this place explodes in anger and the hatred of Christianity grows monumentally.

[sven]

All right. Although I mostly agree with you in principle, I think you have a way of arguing that is a little bit too radical, to put it politely.
My friend is not an idiot, by the way. I just happen to think he is very wrong in this particular case.

[Cinjin]

All right. Although I mostly agree with you in principle, I think you have a way of arguing that is a little bit too radical, to put it politely.
My friend is not an idiot, by the way. I just happen to think he is very wrong in this particular case.

Are you talking to me or Min? Please quote the person you're talking to so we don't have to guess. Thanks.

[Minimalist]

I'll take it, Cinj.

I have no tolerance for people who believe in supernatural explanations for anything. I call such people "idiots."

[sven]

I meant both of you. But as I said: I agree in principle, except the part about my friend potentially being an idiot.
Nothing to argue about, really. I think we are basically on the same page.

[Zen Badger]

I meant both of you. But as I said: I agree in principle, except the part about my friend potentially being an idiot.
Nothing to argue about, really. I think we are basically on the same page.

I have to ask why you feel the need to turn him into an atheist.
Has he tried to turn you to religion?
Has he turned into an arsehole since taking up religion?

[sven]

I meant both of you. But as I said: I agree in principle, except the part about my friend potentially being an idiot.
Nothing to argue about, really. I think we are basically on the same page.

I have to ask why you feel the need to turn him into an atheist.
Has he tried to turn you to religion?
Has he turned into an arsehole since taking up religion?

Honestly, I don't feel the need to turn him into an atheist. It just irks me that he, the most intelligent person I know, is religious. So I guess I would prefer if he was an atheist. But I don't think I can turn him into one.