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Unconventional opinions
#21
RE: Unconventional opinions
But I wanna add chewy caramel pieces and chocolate cover potato chips!
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#22
RE: Unconventional opinions
(April 11, 2014 at 5:14 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: - Marriage is wrong
I think that depends on the marriage. But I agree to the extent that marriage isn't for everyone.
Not just 'not for everyone' but fundamentally wrong as a concept: everyone should be free to express their commitment to their partner in whatever fashion they so choose without a legal requirement for permission or ratification from a public body (be that governmental or religious). Personally, I take it as a direct insult that my commitment to my partner is not considered sufficient, appropriate or trust-worthy unless ratified by the government or the state religion.

Quote: - Domestic government should be about administration and implementation: the decisions should be made by panels of the experts
I'm pretty sure the first clause is generally the case. As to the second, who chooses the experts?
In the UK, the government comes up with the ideas and makes the decisions with no requirement of regard for facts: our politicians can do what they like for whatever reasons they can sell to their fellow politicians. I would stop that and put the idea-generation and decision-making power in the hands of bodies of experts. Those experts would be chosen by the public from lists of qualified candidates: qualifications would be education and experience.
Quote: - Raves should be legal
Didn't know they weren't.
See my response to sejanus
Quote: - All wages should be equal
Really? Which would you rather have: A tumor removed by a surgeon doing it for janitor's wages, or your garbage picked up by someone making surgeon's wages?
The latter. All work of value is of equal value therefore should be equally & equitably remunerated.
Quote: - There should be a cap on profit
Disagree. I think profit would look better in a bowler hat than a cap.
It would go better with the pin-stripes
Quote: - All essential services (e.g. food, water, housing, health, education, fuel and more...) should be publically owned and free to the user
And who pays for these things? If you fund them via taxes or service fees, they aren't 'free'.
That's why I said 'free to the user'. Think of the model of the UK National Health Service: it's paid for by taxes but when you use the service, you pay nothing.
Sum ergo sum
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#23
RE: Unconventional opinions
(April 11, 2014 at 7:41 am)Ben Davis Wrote:
(April 11, 2014 at 5:14 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: - Marriage is wrong
I think that depends on the marriage. But I agree to the extent that marriage isn't for everyone.
Not just 'not for everyone' but fundamentally wrong as a concept: everyone should be free to express their commitment to their partner in whatever fashion they so choose without a legal requirement for permission or ratification from a public body (be that governmental or religious). Personally, I take it as a direct insult that my commitment to my partner is not considered sufficient, appropriate or trust-worthy unless ratified by the government or the state religion.

I sort of agree here, except it only seems to make sense if marriage was mandatory, rather than optional. Plenty of couples I know are unmarried having been together for years, and they are certainly regarded as just as committed etc as any married couple.

Some couples just like to do something further for whatever reason. You even said 'everyone should be free to express their commitment to their partner in whatever fashion they so choose' - well some people may choose to have a ceremony and have their state recognise their relationship in some official capacity.

I certainly agree that married couples should not have any greater rights than unmarried, but that's about as far as I can go.
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#24
RE: Unconventional opinions
(April 11, 2014 at 8:56 am)ElDinero Wrote: I sort of agree here, except it only seems to make sense if marriage was mandatory, rather than optional. Plenty of couples I know are unmarried having been together for years, and they are certainly regarded as just as committed etc as any married couple.
In the UK, that's not the case, legally speaking. Married people are subject to different laws than unmarried people including tax benefits (a cash bribe!).
Quote:Some couples just like to do something further for whatever reason. You even said 'everyone should be free to express their commitment to their partner in whatever fashion they so choose'
Indeed. My partner and I are saving for a 'Commitment Ceremony' where we'll make public statements of our love, share the experience with our families and loved ones, create happy memories of a special occasion... all that good stuff! No religion will be involved and we won't be signing any Marriage Register. That will keep the government's nose out of my personal business but it will mean that I don't get the same rights as a married couple: I've had to make separate legal arrangements to cover those. For example, a man who's married with a family but doesn't give a shit about his wife and kids has more rights in their regard than I do! Marital status is not necessarily an indicator of commitment and regularly hides the flaws in a relationship behind a veneer of respectability (something we're good at, traditionally, in the UK).
Quote:well some people may choose to have a ceremony and have their state recognise their relationship in some official capacity.
Ask yourself 'why?'. I would suggest that this is due to cultural and/or religious indoctrination. If the government didn't use marriage as a social control mechanism or offer legal & financial bribes & incentives, you'd have more of a point. But granting your point for a moment, why should those who don't want that be afforded fewer rights than those who do?
Quote:I certainly agree that married couples should not have any greater rights than unmarried, but that's about as far as I can go.
Then to recycle some phraseology, 'freedom of marriage means freedom from marriage': let's build up a wall between relationship-commitment and state.
Sum ergo sum
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#25
RE: Unconventional opinions
I really enjoyed the Star Wars prequels.
I'm a bitch, I'm a lover
I'm a goddess, I'm a mother
I'm a sinner, I'm a saint
I do not feel ashamed
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#26
Re: RE: Unconventional opinions
(April 11, 2014 at 7:41 am)Ben Davis Wrote: The latter. All work of value is of equal value therefore should be equally & equitably remunerated.

1. The work of a brain surgeon and the work of a garbage man are not of equal value. The garbage man is not capable of doing brain surgery however the surgeon would have no problem performing trash duty.

2. If you did pay the trash man what the surgeon made it would be no different than the reverse. The economy would adjust to it and everyone would make a low wage. This would result in performers not giving a shit and you wouldn't have anyone worth a damned to remove your tumor.

3. I assume your current job is on part with the trash man and not the brain surgeon.
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#27
RE: Unconventional opinions
(April 11, 2014 at 9:46 am)ThePinsir Wrote: I really enjoyed the Star Wars prequels.

Now that's an unconventional opinion.
[Image: thfrog.gif]



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#28
RE: Unconventional opinions
(April 11, 2014 at 9:52 am)KUSA Wrote: 1. The work of a brain surgeon and the work of a garbage man are not of equal value. The garbage man is not capable of doing brain surgery however the surgeon would have no problem performing trash duty.
I'm not talking about human ability to perform a function, I'm talking about the value of roles within processes. Our current remuneration models are based around scareceness of ability: the rarer your skill, the greater your remuneration however we see this leads to people manipulating society so that the perception of rarity is used rather than the rarity itself. Also using W.E. Demming's statistical models, we see that human skill only impacts ~5% of all process outcomes therefore 'rarity' is not an appropriate means of determining value in the vast majority of scenarios. Instead it's better to examine the overall value chain of the process and equally distribute remuneration through it. That means the bin man gets paid the same as the surgeon because they're both adding value to the overall process.
Quote:2. If you did pay the trash man what the surgeon made it would be no different than the reverse. The economy would adjust to it and everyone would make a low wage. This would result in performers not giving a shit and you wouldn't have anyone worth a damned to remove your tumor.
Not true. Studies into reasons behind human motivation demonstrates that greater remuneration increases neither the likelihood of a role being performed nor the level of competence with which the role is carried out. Here's a great video summary by Dan Pink:



Quote:3. I assume your current job is on part with the trash man and not the brain surgeon.
All jobs are. What's your point?
Sum ergo sum
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#29
RE: Unconventional opinions
(April 11, 2014 at 9:20 am)Ben Davis Wrote:
(April 11, 2014 at 8:56 am)ElDinero Wrote: I sort of agree here, except it only seems to make sense if marriage was mandatory, rather than optional. Plenty of couples I know are unmarried having been together for years, and they are certainly regarded as just as committed etc as any married couple.
In the UK, that's not the case, legally speaking. Married people are subject to different laws than unmarried people including tax benefits (a cash bribe!).
Quote:Some couples just like to do something further for whatever reason. You even said 'everyone should be free to express their commitment to their partner in whatever fashion they so choose'
Indeed. My partner and I are saving for a 'Commitment Ceremony' where we'll make public statements of our love, share the experience with our families and loved ones, create happy memories of a special occasion... all that good stuff! No religion will be involved and we won't be signing any Marriage Register. That will keep the government's nose out of my personal business but it will mean that I don't get the same rights as a married couple: I've had to make separate legal arrangements to cover those. For example, a man who's married with a family but doesn't give a shit about his wife and kids has more rights in their regard than I do! Marital status is not necessarily an indicator of commitment and regularly hides the flaws in a relationship behind a veneer of respectability (something we're good at, traditionally, in the UK).
Quote:well some people may choose to have a ceremony and have their state recognise their relationship in some official capacity.
Ask yourself 'why?'. I would suggest that this is due to cultural and/or religious indoctrination. If the government didn't use marriage as a social control mechanism or offer legal & financial bribes & incentives, you'd have more of a point. But granting your point for a moment, why should those who don't want that be afforded fewer rights than those who do?
Quote:I certainly agree that married couples should not have any greater rights than unmarried, but that's about as far as I can go.
Then to recycle some phraseology, 'freedom of marriage means freedom from marriage': let's build up a wall between relationship-commitment and state.

Why is the entire slant of your response 'why should married couples have greater rights' when I explicitly said in my post that they shouldn't? Did you read and reply to my post one paragraph at a time?

I'm from the UK, so I'm well aware - hence my final statement that I agree that greater rights shouldn't exist. The amount is pretty negligible (I think at best it's about 100 quid a year), but I certainly disagree on a matter of principle. I also agree that the reason marriage is so popular is because of cultural, including religious, history. But in the same way that we don't bat an eyelid at people celebrating Christmas in a secular way, marriage has been adopted outside of those constraints. I don't see a problem with it, if that's what makes people happy.

As a side note, I don't think there are many, if any couples that get married to take advantage of tax benefits etc. - they do it because they want to, whether that's a result of 'cultural indoctrination' or not.
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#30
RE: Unconventional opinions
(April 11, 2014 at 10:19 am)ElDinero Wrote: Why is the entire slant of your response 'why should married couples have greater rights' when I explicitly said in my post that they shouldn't? Did you read and reply to my post one paragraph at a time?
No, it's because you said lots of other things too. Apologies for giving you a full response!
Quote:I'm from the UK, so I'm well aware - hence my final statement that I agree that greater rights shouldn't exist. The amount is pretty negligible (I think at best it's about 100 quid a year), but I certainly disagree on a matter of principle. I also agree that the reason marriage is so popular is because of cultural, including religious, history. But in the same way that we don't bat an eyelid at people celebrating Christmas in a secular way, marriage has been adopted outside of those constraints. I don't see a problem with it, if that's what makes people happy.
As an additional comment, it's not just tax, it's familial bodily rights, inheritance rights, access to children in the case of separation... the list is large and impacts many areas of 'family' life.

But overall we agree: get legislation out of marriage. Of course takes us back to the 'freedom of marriage means freedom from marriage' point.

And I agree with your postscript. It leads me to ask the question: why do the government and state religion insist on maintaining them?
Sum ergo sum
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