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RE: The theist evolution argument
May 2, 2014 at 10:26 am
(This post was last modified: May 2, 2014 at 10:29 am by ThePinsir.)
(May 2, 2014 at 9:36 am)Jason_ab Wrote: That the odds of creation of man through this proccess are so slim, that is a strong indicator that God was involved...
This is a very anthrocentric, and I think arrogant, view. It assumes that we're somehow special, that humans are for some reason the ultimate end, the ultimate "goal" of evolution. We are not. As far as evolution goes, we're just lumps of water and flesh that happen to be really good at making copies of ourselves.
(May 2, 2014 at 9:36 am)Jason_ab Wrote: I have to admit, at first it sounds quite legit to me...
At first...until you actually, you know, apply an ounce of critical thought.
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RE: The theist evolution argument
May 2, 2014 at 10:39 am
Craig no doubt understands probability, but is hoping the bulk of his audience does not.
Probabilities for events that *have already occurred* are 1 (100%).
We have insufficient data on the parameters for our particular universe's "creation"/instantiation, so it is a misrepresentation (i.e., a lie) to say the probability of our universe occurring is x.
WLC still sells snake oil, but tries to put on a nicer intellectual suit. His arguments are no less idiotic.
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RE: The theist evolution argument
May 2, 2014 at 10:44 am
(This post was last modified: May 2, 2014 at 10:47 am by Confused Ape.)
(May 2, 2014 at 9:36 am)Jason_ab Wrote: He said (long story short) that the probabillity of evolution through natural selection happening in such a way that it did, is so tiny, that it indicates the existence of a God that superintended the process.
That the odds of creation of man through this proccess are so slim, that is a strong indicator that God was involved...
Here's an article by Francis Collins.
Evolution And The Imago Dei
Quote:Suppose God chose to use the mechanism of evolution to create animals like us, knowing this process would lead to big-brained creatures with the capacity to think, ask questions about our own origins, discover the truth about the universe and discover pointers toward the One who provides meaning to life. Who are we to say that's not how we would have done it?
If the dinosaurs hadn't become extinct there might have been a different line of evolution resulting in big-brained creatures with the capacity to think etc. These creatures might have thought that evolution was the way God did it because he knew it would eventually result in them appearing on the Earth.
Does God have a physical body which looks just like a human's? If not, maybe he wasn't fussy about what kind of big brained creatures would be the end result. After all, as long as they were able to make scientific discoveries it wouldn't matter if they had scales and a tail. 
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RE: The theist evolution argument
May 2, 2014 at 10:51 am
(May 2, 2014 at 9:36 am)Jason_ab Wrote:
I'm going to add to max-greece's analogy and Zen Badger & Pinsir's point about the assumption that humanity is a 'goal' or 'speciality' of evolution.
The odds of selecting any card from a deck is 1 because the circumstances/rules are such that there are only playing cards available from which to select: if you don't care which card you pick, you're going to be happy! Now, the odds of picking a specific card are 1:52 with the increasing odds for specific sets of cards. But evolution can not care which card gets picked and since it only has playing cards available...
I hope my point is clear: given the circumstances in which life can arise, life arose. So WLC's using word-play and gullibility to sell a tautology as if it were a profound observation.
IMO Hitchens should have ripped him a new one for that!
Sum ergo sum
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RE: The theist evolution argument
May 2, 2014 at 11:33 am
Even if you believed that humans couldn't have come about without a gods intervention, how do you get to the god of the bible? I could just insert anything into the sentence. 'The chance of humans evolving as we did is so low that it indicates intervention from the flying spaghetti monster'
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
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RE: The theist evolution argument
May 2, 2014 at 11:36 am
(This post was last modified: May 2, 2014 at 11:38 am by Mister Agenda.)
(May 2, 2014 at 9:36 am)Jason_ab Wrote: Hallo again.
As I said in one previous post, @ youtube.com/watch?v=e8MzPmkNsgU where William Lane Craig debates Christopher Hitchens about the existence of God, an argument from Craig caught my attention.
He said (long story short) that the probabillity of evolution through natural selection happening in such a way that it did, is so tiny, that it indicates the existence of a God that superintended the process.
That the odds of creation of man through this proccess are so slim, that is a strong indicator that God was involved...
Can I read your opinions about this?
I have to admit, at first it sounds quite legit to me...
At least as legit as a lottery winner calculating that they couldn't have won the lottery because the odds are 127 million to one.
(May 2, 2014 at 9:47 am)Jason_ab Wrote: No, he doesn't, he quotes two guys Barem and Tippler.
I think I could agree that the odds of evolution to human from natural selection were extraodinary slim. Don't misinderstand what I am saying, OF COURSE the evolution theory is valid, the argument is whether it was possible without devine superintention.
It is a quite big video, the specific argument is articulated at 56:27 from Craig.
The interesting fact is that he got no answer from Hitchens.
If it wasn't possible without divine intervention, it wouldn't be possible to calculate the odds against it. Odds don't apply to things that can't happen by chance.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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The theist evolution argument
May 2, 2014 at 12:02 pm
(May 2, 2014 at 11:33 am)Bad Wolf Wrote: Even if you believed that humans couldn't have come about without a gods intervention, how do you get to the god of the bible? I could just insert anything into the sentence. 'The chance of humans evolving as we did is so low that it indicates intervention from the flying spaghetti monster'
And the odds of any other entity, force, process or event being a cause, or there being no cause in the way we understand it, make the probability it was the Christian God of one specific sect is likely far lower than the probability for life arising.
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RE: The theist evolution argument
May 2, 2014 at 12:25 pm
Are you really surprised that Craig had to go out of his way to find 2 wacko scientists who believe evolution couldn't possibly have happened and somehow claim that unilaterally ends the discussion?
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RE: The theist evolution argument
May 2, 2014 at 3:22 pm
Thank you all for your responses, they were quite solid. I'm happy to say I'm convinced, even though I usually have a quite thick scull.
It's soooo cool this internet thing. Among other things it allows you to find really smart people that share the same philosophical itch.
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RE: The theist evolution argument
May 2, 2014 at 3:53 pm
'this internet thing'? How old are you exactly?
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
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