Fate and Free will

[Marsellus Wallace]

I find something monumentally inappropriate in a Muslim fundy who styles himself 'Logic Master'.

Boru

and there is only one logic master........Obi wan

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I find something monumentally inappropriate in a Muslim fundy who styles himself 'Logic Master'.

Boru

and there is only one logic master........Obi wan

Obi Wan was a deluded old mystic who got what he deserved. Interfering prat.

Boru

[LogicMaster]

I am an Arabian that's why my English is not too good, I didn't want to make it this way but, i will use logic now since that the best way i can speak:

I want to prove the proposition:
"There is free will and God knows all our choices"
let A be "There is free will" and B be "God knows all our choices"
we have: A & B

To prove A & B:

by de morgan's law: A & B <--> ~(~A or ~B) "It's not true that (there is no free will or God doesn't know all our choices)"

now i will prove that (~A or ~B) "There is no free will or God doens't know all our choices" will lead us to a contradiction and by reductio ad absurdum (Proof by contradiction) ~(~A or ~B) will be true and by that A & B will follow.

now for proving that (~A or ~B) will lead to a contradiction:
by disjunctive syllogism:
assume ~(~A) which is A "There is free will" we will conclude ~B

~A or ~B
~(~A)
------------ (Disjunctive Syllogism)
~B (God doesn't know all our choices)

that means "If there is free will then god doesn't know all our choices"

now look at this proposition "One must know what he creates", which is true because the act of creation comes from the knowledge of it in the first place.

since free will is not only creation it's a part of god's knowledge (as we said), and since our choices is the essence of free will, that means if there is no free will then i can't choose. now we know that "free will is part of god's knowledge"

now since god is timeless, that means everything that is happening or happened or will happen is known to him, and he isn't even limited to a metaphysical world, and the problem that we can't know like the way god knows is that god has limited us to time and cosmic space that's why i said we can't comprehend how god knows.

if you didn't agree look at it in this way:
look at the universe from the big bang to the future as a cone, and in this cone you have 4 dimensions the three space dimensions and time, that means any point in the cone has a specific time and space, know we are somewhere in it, we can't see the past nor the future, because we are embed in this cone, but god no, so he sees this cone and he sees every event from past to future.

that means god has to know all our choices, and a contradiction!
we concluded ~B (God doesn't know all our choices) from (~A or ~B) (There is no free will or god doesn't know all our choices) as we have seen, and this leaded us to a contradiction: "God knows our choices even if there is free will"

now the second way:
~A or ~B
~(~B)
---------- (Disjunctive Syllogism)
~A

"If god knows all our choices, then there is no free will"

Since god knows all our choices, and god want's to test us, we have to have free will, (Duh how can you test a robot to have a choice if you programmed his acts in the first place.) and i don't want to repeat (because someone has criticized me for that) the cone example, by the cone example god really sees everything but that doesn't interfere with free will, simply because the nature of god. so once again a contradiction "If god knows our choices doesn't mean there is no free will".

If you still don't agree, I wan't to show you a very simple example, let's say that your brother goes to school and you said: "My brother will go to school tommorow" and he really did, even if you knew it doesn't mean that he didn't have the free will to go to school. So if that was true on the scale of us humans, why can't it be for god?

since (~A or ~B) leads to contradiction:

(~A or ~B)
------------
absurdity
----------- (Reductio ad absurdum)
~(~A or ~B)
---------------- (De morgan)
A and B

"There is free will and god knows all our choices"

If you are still didn't agree, by logic, look at it simply by this way:
God is timeless cannot be comprehended, our free will doesn't interfere with the fact that he knows all our choices, simply because our will is not absolute (I mean that you can't choose to put the sun somewhere else, or earth to be in the place of mars) even you didn't choose to be you or to exist, your existence isn't a choice of you nor your parents, nor the planet you live in nor the solar system. There is free will though it is limited on some scale.

If this doesn't make you agree list your objections and i am thankful.

Thanks for reading, and i'm sorry for the first post (Because as i said my English is not that good), by the way why is it weird for Muslims to be logical, look at the history of our philosophers and logicians you will really be shocked.

[Confused Ape]

now since god is timeless, that means everything that is happening or happened or will happen is known to him, and he isn't even limited to a metaphysical world, and the problem that we can't know like the way god knows is that god has limited us to time and cosmic space that's why i said we can't comprehend how god knows.

All he'd have to do is turn his attention to the end of the universe to see what everyone did even though they mightn't have done it yet from their own point of view.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

So, I'll ask, how is it possible to say on the one hand that (your version of) god's will is unknowable and yet in the same post make several references to how you know what (your version of) god can do/wants/is (etc)?

[bennyboy]

Why do muslims need a text wall to explain every point? Here, let me fix a couple words for you to make your logic more sound:

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RE: Fate and Free will
I am an Arabian that's why my English is not too good, I didn't want to make it this way but, i will use logic now since that the best way i can speak:

I want to prove the proposition:
"There is free will and Magic Space Bunny knows all our choices"
let A be "There is free will" and B be "Magic Space Bunny knows all our choices"
we have: A & B

To prove A & B:

by de morgan's law: A & B <--> ~(~A or ~B) "It's not true that (there is no free will or Magic Space Bunny doesn't know all our choices)"

now i will prove that (~A or ~B) "There is no free will or Magic Space Bunny doens't know all our choices" will lead us to a contradiction and by reductio ad absurdum (Proof by contradiction) ~(~A or ~B) will be true and by that A & B will follow.

now for proving that (~A or ~B) will lead to a contradiction:
by disjunctive syllogism:
assume ~(~A) which is A "There is free will" we will conclude ~B

~A or ~B
~(~A)
------------ (Disjunctive Syllogism)
~B (Magic Space Bunny doesn't know all our choices)

that means "If there is free will then Magic Space Bunny doesn't know all our choices"

now look at this proposition "One must know what he creates", which is true because the act of creation comes from the knowledge of it in the first place.

since free will is not only creation it's a part of Magic Space Bunny's knowledge (as we said), and since our choices is the essence of free will, that means if there is no free will then i can't choose. now we know that "free will is part of Magic Space Bunny's knowledge"

now since Magic Space Bunny is timeless, that means everything that is happening or happened or will happen is known to him, and he isn't even limited to a metaphysical world, and the problem that we can't know like the way Magic Space Bunny knows is that Magic Space Bunny has limited us to time and cosmic space that's why i said we can't comprehend how Magic Space Bunny knows.

if you didn't agree look at it in this way:
look at the universe from the big bang to the future as a cone, and in this cone you have 4 dimensions the three space dimensions and time, that means any point in the cone has a specific time and space, know we are somewhere in it, we can't see the past nor the future, because we are embed in this cone, but Magic Space Bunny no, so he sees this cone and he sees every event from past to future.

that means Magic Space Bunny has to know all our choices, and a contradiction!
we concluded ~B (Magic Space Bunny doesn't know all our choices) from (~A or ~B) (There is no free will or Magic Space Bunny doesn't know all our choices) as we have seen, and this leaded us to a contradiction: "Magic Space Bunny knows our choices even if there is free will"

now the second way:
~A or ~B
~(~B)
---------- (Disjunctive Syllogism)
~A

"If Magic Space Bunny knows all our choices, then there is no free will"

Since Magic Space Bunny knows all our choices, and Magic Space Bunny want's to test us, we have to have free will, (Duh how can you test a robot to have a choice if you programmed his acts in the first place.) and i don't want to repeat (because someone has criticized me for that) the cone example, by the cone example Magic Space Bunny really sees everything but that doesn't interfere with free will, simply because the nature of Magic Space Bunny. so once again a contradiction "If Magic Space Bunny knows our choices doesn't mean there is no free will".

If you still don't agree, I wan't to show you a very simple example, let's say that your brother goes to school and you said: "My brother will go to school tommorow" and he really did, even if you knew it doesn't mean that he didn't have the free will to go to school. So if that was true on the scale of us humans, why can't it be for Magic Space Bunny?

since (~A or ~B) leads to contradiction:

(~A or ~B)
------------
absurdity
----------- (Reductio ad absurdum)
~(~A or ~B)
---------------- (De morgan)
A and B

"There is free will and Magic Space Bunny knows all our choices"

If you are still didn't agree, by logic, look at it simply by this way:
Magic Space Bunny is timeless cannot be comprehended, our free will doesn't interfere with the fact that he knows all our choices, simply because our will is not absolute (I mean that you can't choose to put the sun somewhere else, or earth to be in the place of mars) even you didn't choose to be you or to exist, your existence isn't a choice of you nor your parents, nor the planet you live in nor the solar system. There is free will though it is limited on some scale.

If this doesn't make you agree list your objections and i am thankful.

Thanks for reading, and i'm sorry for the first post (Because as i said my English is not that good), by the way why is it weird for Muslims to be logical, look at the history of our philosophers and logicians you will really be shocked.

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