Fate and Free will

[Marsellus Wallace]

A conversation(translated ofc ) between me and mom, and i'm playing the guy who just doesn't get it and doesn't have a solid opinion about anything so that she won't suspect anything

Me : Why did god create us if he knew what we're gonna do ?
Mom : Well, fate is already decided and you chose what you're gonna do and thats why its written in that book ?
Me : so, I wrote my own fate by doing it in the future ?
Mom : Yes.
Me : so, but still in the end god knows what i'm gonna do .
Mom : Well, most people say that god gives 2 fates for you to choose from, the good one and the bad one.
Me : so god knows which one i'm gonna do ?
Mom : No.
Me : isn't god supposed to know everything ?
Mom : Well, he knows both of the things that you may do.
Me : But, but he doesn't know which one i'm gonna choose, based on what you said .
Mom : What are you trying to say ?
Me : Nothing, i'm just asking.
Mom : well, stop asking .

The point of the discussion is that a god knowing our fate conflicts logically with the free will; A god not knowing our fate conflicts with that god knowing everything; A god not knowing everything conflicts with him being a god in the first place.

Little about me : I like having some theological discussions with my mother more that with my father, because my father doesn't use logic in any of the discussions, he is very very religious, so he uses the Quran only to speak .

[Silver]

Mom : well, stop asking .

Inquiring minds, after all, create atheists.

[Elskidor]

Mom : well, stop asking .

Inquiring minds, after all, create atheists.

That's funny stuff right there.

[LogicMaster]

Marsellus Wallace,

First you lack logical coherence, (by the way your mom doesn't need to have all the answers)

First of all you had an illusion that god is influenced under time, now since god has to be absolute, which i mean that the laws of the universe is his creation and god is not limited to our mind and universe so he is absolute, that means past, present and future are all limited to us only but not to god, and when god knows his knowledge is not like the human knowledge because he is supreme, and you can't even comprehend the essence of his knowledge.

now since god is not limited to time (past, present and future) then his knowledge is the same thing, and then fate (because fate is part of his knowledge).

The laws of physics are also part of fate, and the way the universe is structured, even mathematical truths.

when you do something, your are simply a part of the universe and then influenced under the laws of physics which again is part of fate, and what you choose to do is your fate because free will is part of fate too because god gave you free will from his fate.

now how is that possible that god knows what we choose? simply again read the above (god isn't limited to time so his knowledge)
that means future is known by god.

and must not again have an illusion that fate is something like a hard stone, or a piece of wood, the essence is unknown because god is supreme of these universal laws

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Welcome

You've committed a logical error yourself in your opening post.

For example. This:

and when god knows his knowledge is not like the human knowledge because he is supreme, and you can't even comprehend the essence of his knowledge.

Contradicts this:

now since god is not limited to time (past, present and future) then his knowledge is the same thing, and then fate (because fate is part of his knowledge).

Forgive me, I didn't have the will to respond to the rest of what looked like a bit of wishy washy diatribe of assumptions.

[Cato]

God gives only two fates to choose from? Fucking brilliant. I'm using this the next time I'm told neither as a response to spit or swallow.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Just a shit and runner theist.

Standard. He sure showed us!

[ThePinsir]

A god not knowing everything conflicts with him being a god in the first place

Nah. It could just be a really shitty god

[Marsellus Wallace]

..............

You're repeating yourself over and over, your whole point is : god is timeless , then he knows the future and thus our fate.

A verse from the Quran that disagrees with you :
“Verily, We have created all things with Qadar (Divine Preordainments of all things before their creation as written in the Book of Decrees Al‑Lawh Al‑Mahfooz)” [Al-Qamar 54:49]

Here it doesn't say that fate("Qadar") is the god being timeless , it says that fate("Qadar") is a thing that god used to create with .


Here is another verse where god says that "it is a BOOK" :
"No misfortune can happen on earth or in your souls but is recorded in a Decree before We bring it into existence! That is truly easy for Allah: In order that ye may not despair over matters that pass you by, nor exult over favors bestowed upon you. For Allah loves not any vainglorious boaster" [Hadid 22-23]

Btw, The word "Decree" is strangely translated this way from the word "Book" in the arabic version of the Quran .


PS: I'm not expecting my mother to answer all my question, as I said it was just a discussion .

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I find something monumentally inappropriate in a Muslim fundy who styles himself 'Logic Master'.

Boru