Is Eve in Hell right now?

[vorlon13]

I'm sorry, though I thought that even in Christianity, those who go to heaven or hell will be determined after Judgement day. No one is either in heaven or in hell right now.

If Reverend Moon isn't in hell right now and burning in a flame that is thermonuclear bomb hot, there are going to be fundamentalists all around the country whose heads are going to explode.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

The Bible says in several places that God lies and deceives.

You need to bring proof.

GC

Who gave Moses the Commandments?

[Confused Ape]

You need to bring proof.

GC

Here's something interesting I discovered about God on the Judaism 101 website.

Judaism 101 - The Nature of G-d

G-d is the Creator of Everything

Everything in the universe was created by G-d and only by G-d. Judaism completely rejects the dualistic notion that evil was created by Satan or some other deity. All comes from G-d. As Isaiah said , "I am the L-rd, and there is none else. I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil. I am the L-rd, that does all these things." (Is. 45:6-7).

I checked it out and that's what the King James and American Standard say. Other translations have variation on - "I make well-being, I create woe".

When I looked into this further I found a interpretation on the Christian Apologetics And Research Ministry website - Does God Create Evil?

The author uses a translation which says - "Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these," (Isaiah 45:5-7). The article goes on to say that God creates natural disasters, not moral evil.

Outreach Judaism has a different perspective.

Outreach Judaism is an international organization that responds directly to the issues raised by missionaries and cults, by exploring Judaism in contradistinction to fundamentalist Christianity.

Who Is Satan?

“See, I [God] have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil.” (Deuteronomy 30:15)

When describing God’s creation plan, the prophet Isaiah reports that the Almighty created evil in the world:

“I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7)

I did not invent these verses, nor did I tamper with them. In fact, the Bible I used in the above quotations is the King James Version, a translation that could hardly be construed as friendly to the Jewish faith.

These edifying verses underscore the fundamental biblical teaching of the Almighty’s divine sovereign plan, which provides that every searching soul must confront evil, as well as good, in order to remain vigilant in one’s personal search for perfect spiritual balance. The Almighty’s gift of freewill to humanity is what separates us from His other creations. For those committed to attaining a higher spiritual existence, the struggle toward a life of virtue is only possible with the existence of evil, which serves as a spiritual counterweight. In other words, righteousness cannot exist unless man is free to choose or reject evil.

Satan isn't a fallen angel in Judaism.

Passages in Tanach like Isaiah 45:7 and Deuteronomy 30:15 pose a monumental theological problem for Christians who maintain that God did not create Satan, the angel of evil. According to Christian doctrine, as you state in your question, Satan was the highest-ranking angel who, through his own act of spiritual defiance and outright disobedience, became the chief adversary and slanderer of God, and the embodiment of evil in this world. As you maintained in your question, God never created evil according Christian teachings; He is only the author of righteousness and perfection. Therefore, God could never create something as sinister as the devil himself. Rather, Satan’s unyielding wickedness is the result of his own spiritual rebellion.

Although this well-known Christian doctrine has much in common with the pagan Zoroastrian Persian dualism from which it spawned, it is completely alien to the teachings of the Jewish Scriptures. In fact, this Christian notion that Satan, in an act of outright defiance, ceased to function as God had intended him to, suggests that God created something imperfect or defective.

For the Jewish faith, Satan’s purpose in seducing man away from God poses no problem because Satan is only an agent of God. As a servant of the Almighty, Satan faithfully carries out the divine will of his Creator as he does in all his tasks.

[Bob Kelso]

[RobbyPants]

The Bible says in several places that God lies and deceives.

And even if it didn't, we certainly have no reason to trust him. The apologetics are quite clear on this.

[Brakeman]

The Bible says in several places that God lies and deceives.

You need to bring proof.

GC

Three posts before yours I listed the bible verses.. but if you're saying that the bible isn't proof of jack-shit, then I'm right there with ya..

[Godscreated]

You need to bring proof.

GC

Who gave Moses the Commandments?

What kind of proof do you see that as?

GC

[Godscreated]

You need to bring proof.

GC

Here's something interesting I discovered about God on the Judaism 101 website.

Judaism 101 - The Nature of G-d

G-d is the Creator of Everything

Everything in the universe was created by G-d and only by G-d. Judaism completely rejects the dualistic notion that evil was created by Satan or some other deity. All comes from G-d. As Isaiah said , "I am the L-rd, and there is none else. I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil. I am the L-rd, that does all these things." (Is. 45:6-7).

I checked it out and that's what the King James and American Standard say. Other translations have variation on - "I make well-being, I create woe".

When I looked into this further I found a interpretation on the Christian Apologetics And Research Ministry website - Does God Create Evil?

The author uses a translation which says - "Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these," (Isaiah 45:5-7). The article goes on to say that God creates natural disasters, not moral evil.

Outreach Judaism has a different perspective.

I read through the Judaism 101 or at least the first page and I and most Christians I know would agree with almost all of it, I do not agree that God created evil. One reason I do not believe He did, God said at the end of each creation day, "it was very good." To my understanding there was no evil in creation or God would not have called His creation very good.
The word ra' that is from ra'a' can be translated as evil, however that evil can come in many forms that are not moral evil, it can also be translated as calamity, dishonest, dishonor and many others of this likeness. The New American Standard has translated it as calamity, as not a moral evil.
Actually I do not see how moral evil (that which is against God), can be created, I do not really believe Satan created evil though I have probably said this to emphasize that God did not create that which goes against His good and perfect will. It just doesn't make sense that an omniscient being would create something that is not part of Him and would be contrary to all of who He is. Even sensible man doesn't create problems for himself and we are definitely not omniscient.
I see evil as an action contrary to God's will, I know this can bring up several different arguments, I believe these would be best left to a different thread.

Outreach Judaism is an international organization that responds directly to the issues raised by missionaries and cults, by exploring Judaism in contradistinction to fundamentalist Christianity.

Who Is Satan?

“See, I [God] have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil.” (Deuteronomy 30:15)

When describing God’s creation plan, the prophet Isaiah reports that the Almighty created evil in the world:

“I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7)

I did not invent these verses, nor did I tamper with them. In fact, the Bible I used in the above quotations is the King James Version, a translation that could hardly be construed as friendly to the Jewish faith.

It's a dangerous thing to take a verse out of a story to defend a position and that verse actually has a different meaning, as in Deut. 30:15. This is a warn from God to the Israelites, "if you do not obey these commandments, the ones not out of you reach, this I will cause to happen to you." Note there is nothing about creation in the entire chapter (30), it is about obedience once they enter the promise land. Verse 15 is actually a choice, they can choose a good long life as a nation or they can choose a short and disastrous life as a nation. As long as they obeyed God's commandments as a nation they would prosper, if the chose to disobey they would fall into the hands of their enemies, this is the meaning of chapter 30.

These edifying verses underscore the fundamental biblical teaching of the Almighty’s divine sovereign plan, which provides that every searching soul must confront evil, as well as good, in order to remain vigilant in one’s personal search for perfect spiritual balance. The Almighty’s gift of freewill to humanity is what separates us from His other creations. For those committed to attaining a higher spiritual existence, the struggle toward a life of virtue is only possible with the existence of evil, which serves as a spiritual counterweight. In other words, righteousness cannot exist unless man is free to choose or reject evil.

Adam and Eve lived for who knows how long in righteousness with God, no evil was present until Lucifer entered the Garden as a fallen angel. Lucifer had been in the Garden with God before his fall, this is told us through a comparison for the King of Tyre. Why would God create a being that would do evil, this is completely against who God is, tell me why would God's sovereign will need to contain evil, God had already existed forever without evil existing, so good does not need evil to exist, but evil can not exist without good. Why would God create evil to cause Him the troubles He had to deal with because of man, why would God create an evil being like Satan to eventually put him into hell, no chance to have a life with God, no free will to choose, just a puppet in God's hand, to me this is not sovereignty, it would controlling life with no real purpose other than to manipulate. Assuming God created evil and Satan is a way to pass the blame and scripture shows us that we have no excuses, the Israelites were good a doing this, it's why they endured much suffering.

Satan isn't a fallen angel in Judaism.

Passages in Tanach like Isaiah 45:7 and Deuteronomy 30:15 pose a monumental theological problem for Christians who maintain that God did not create Satan, the angel of evil. According to Christian doctrine, as you state in your question, Satan was the highest-ranking angel who, through his own act of spiritual defiance and outright disobedience, became the chief adversary and slanderer of God, and the embodiment of evil in this world.

I've explained those two verses within the chapters they reside, and it is the only way to find the truth they reveal. They actually say nothing in their truth that God created evil. I and most Christians have no problem with these verses, the people who have trouble with these verses are the ones who use them as stand alones to defend an idea for which they were not written.
The scriptures tell of Lucifer's fall, the event's account reaches into the NT.

As you maintained in your question, God never created evil according Christian teachings; He is only the author of righteousness and perfection. Therefore, God could never create something as sinister as the devil himself. Rather, Satan’s unyielding wickedness is the result of his own spiritual rebellion.

Yes, this is widely accepted throughout Christianity.

Although this well-known Christian doctrine has much in common with the pagan Zoroastrian Persian dualism from which it spawned, it is completely alien to the teachings of the Jewish Scriptures. In fact, this Christian notion that Satan, in an act of outright defiance, ceased to function as God had intended him to, suggests that God created something imperfect or defective.

It actually shows that God has given all the created creatures free will, God wants His created ones to love Him and love can not exist without free will. If you will look at what you have quoted the writer uses the word intended, this very word by the writer shows God's free will for His created ones. Without free will there is no perfection, only mindless robots with no will of their own.

For the Jewish faith, Satan’s purpose in seducing man away from God poses no problem because Satan is only an agent of God. As a servant of the Almighty, Satan faithfully carries out the divine will of his Creator as he does in all his tasks.

The book of Job contradicts this notion, again I ask why would God create a being that could only ever deserve hell, no way to ever find God's grace?

GC

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The Bible says in several places that God lies and deceives.

And even if it didn't, we certainly have no reason to trust him. The apologetics are quite clear on this.

Really where?

GC

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That's not an irony meter, it's what atheist propaganda does to your atheist mind and soul.

GC

[Godscreated]

Scripture says God can not lie, this seems to indicate He is incapable of lying, scripture also says God can not do evil or sin (both I see as the same), this to me means He is incapable of these actions.

I understand what you are saying, but it just diminishes god in my opinion. God is conceivably the most perfect being in existence. Thus, while god is not restricted from doing something (such as lying) he is not tempted to do so, as there is nothing to gain from wrongdoing. To be limited in any way is to be diminished in some way, is my view of it.

A very reasonable idea of God, one I have no problem with, however I do disagree. I do not see God not able to lie as being limited, if it's not part of who He is I can't see it as being a limit, only something that does not exist for Him.

No I do not think so, obedience and love go hand in hand, this is a theme throughout the scriptures, the scriptures show them to be locked together. The tree was not meant as a stumbling block, it was there to show love through obedience.

But you can obey someone even if you do not love them, and you can show love through many other ways than obedience. A person may obey out of fear, or out of self-interest. God would have known that Eve loved him because he can read the hearts of men.

Yes I agree, however if you obey the laws God's given us there must be love in the obedience and for God obedience is a fundamental part of love.
As for Eve, she showed her diminished love through her disobedience and the disaster it brought. I see compliance as doing things out of fear or self-interest. Obedience is a desire to obey.

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Agreed the tree did symbolize God's sovereignty over man, I'm not sure God would say that should be enough for man, He did create us with feelings such as love and it is love He desires from us. So choice has to be a part of the relationship or it is just sovereignty.

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I think that there were many ways to do that, though. If god did spend time with Adam and Eve, then they had many ways to show how they felt about him. Doing the assigned work to the fullest of their abilities, or enjoying the world given them and the time spent with him. The tree stood outside of the relationship, in that they could have had the same with or without it. The only use I can see for it is giving them a way to express a desire to separate themselves from god.

The one thing about this situation for Adam and Eve, up until the time they were tempted they did obey, something that was and is extremely important to God and in the end that's what matters. As far as the story goes the only requirement from God was to not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

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No additional information is given, I do think it is implied by the walks they took, regardless the story doesn't tell us one way or the other.
I look at it this way, parents do not tell there children not do do something unless they know that child understands going against their will is wrong.

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The story confirms that the serpent's claim (that they would be like god, knowing good and evil) comes true, as god himself expresses this concern. The question would then become- what is meant by knowledge of good and evil? Is there some other meaning to it, and does the Bible provide an answer?

I'm not sure that is completely what happened, they came to know how to do evil and what it was, God understood what it meant and the consequences that came with such knowledge. Even now I do not believe most humans can conceive all the consequences of evil. I believe that the knowledge could be considered a desire for sin and the understanding of how difficult being good all the time actually is. I also believe that temptation is now from within and not necessarily because of someone or something else. Hope that makes some kind of sense.

So in the end I believe Eve knew that to disobey God meant she was not giving Him all of her love.

I think it is not unreasonable to assume that she at least understood that god would not be pleased. So it becomes a question of what she thought she was gaining, versus what she thought she was losing. If she believes the serpent, then she thinks she will not die and that she will gain some kind of knowledge that god withheld from her. Did she think it would put her on equal footing? Or was she so overtaken by curiosity that she did not consider any other consequence and just wanted to know?

All good questions and probably want know the answer to in this life, one thing I do think is Eve did not consider what God had said to her because the temptation was great. I do not believe it was something she couldn't have over come, that would have negated the necessity of choice.

So I wonder what she learned about god that made her confident enough to accept the serpent's word and eat the fruit.

It might have been that she only knew the love of God, if God had revealed all of what He could do and would do they might have reverted to compliance instead of obedience.

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No not at all that choice was determined by what Adam and Eve did, the consequences of disobedience. Sin made man imperfect, once it was introduced into creation it would be hard to fix, the fix cost God more than it has cost man.

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I think it was within god's power to deal with it differently, at least where their descendants were concerned. Adam and Eve had broken a clear rule with a clear consequence, but that was spread to everyone. If god gave them that command, then there is the implicit understanding that humanity was capable of sin. So god had already put the pieces in place to deal with the possibility of people turning away from him. Why the plan that requires millennia of human suffering and even god himself being tortured and killed in human form? Is it that Adam and Eve were the first humans, and there were no others who could continue the line of perfect people after them?

Being within God's power and what is just can be two very different things. It spread to everyone because it became part of man through Adam, a trust was broken and there was no way to keep it from others who came after them other than God force compliance.
I believe it was because Adam and Eve were the first people and no one else could carry on the line, th Bible says nothing about any children until after the fall.

GC

[Confused Ape]

The word ra' that is from ra'a' can be translated as evil, however that evil can come in many forms that are not moral evil, it can also be translated as calamity, dishonest, dishonor and many others of this likeness. The New American Standard has translated it as calamity, as not a moral evil.

The Old Testament was the Jewish people's holy book long before Christians got hold of it so they ought to know what the correct translation of the word is.

It's a dangerous thing to take a verse out of a story to defend a position and that verse actually has a different meaning, as in Deut. 30:15.

Did you read what the Outreach Judaism organisation is for? In case you didn't get the point here's more from the About Us page.

Rabbi Tovia Singer is well known as the Founder and Director of Outreach Judaism, an international organization dedicated to countering the efforts of fundamentalist Christian groups and cults who specifically target Jews for conversion.

A qualified teacher of Torah gave a few examples to explain the Jewish theological viewpoint.

For the Jewish faith, Satan’s purpose in seducing man away from God poses no problem because Satan is only an agent of God. As a servant of the Almighty, Satan faithfully carries out the divine will of his Creator as he does in all his tasks.

The book of Job contradicts this notion, again I ask why would God create a being that could only ever deserve hell, no way to ever find God's grace?

I bolded the bit which answers your question about why God created Satan. Have you actually read the Book of Job? From the Outreach Judaism article -

In no part of the Bible is this principle more evident than in the Book of Job, where Satan’s role is prominent. In the first chapter of Job, Satan appears before the Almighty with a host of other angels. Satan suggests that Job’s righteousness was not fully tested. He argues that Job might lose his faith if he were confronted by personal pain and utter destitution. He proposes to God that Job serves Him simply because God protects him. Satan requested permission from God to test Job’s virtue. The Almighty grants this petition; however, He meticulously outlines for Satan what he may and may not do when testing Job. Satan obediently follows his Creator’s instructions.

God removes Job’s protection, allowing Satan to take his wealth, children, and his physical health in order to tempt Job to curse God. Job’s faith is challenged, and by the third chapter he begins to struggle. He questions his Maker as to why he was created and, in a moment of despair, wishes aloud that he had perished in his mother’s womb.

Despite his difficult circumstances, Job does not curse God, but rather, curses the day of his birth. And although he protests his plight and pleads for an explanation, he stops short of accusing God of injustice. Still, by the end of this unparalleled biblical narrative, Job’s virtue prevails over Satan’s unyielding blandishments.

Commenting on the Book of Job, the rabbis express sympathy for Satan’s difficult job, which was to “break the barrel but not spill any wine” (Talmud, Bava Basrah 16a).

I'm going to use the translation of Job from Chabad Org.

6. Now the day came about, and the angels of God came to stand beside the Lord, and the Adversary, too, came among them.

7. The Lord said to the Adversary, "Where are you coming from?" And the Adversary answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth and from walking in it."

Didn't it ever strike you as odd that Satan/the Adversary could wander in and out of Heaven if he'd been thrown out of it?