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RE: Parts of the Bible theists on this board ignore
June 6, 2014 at 9:42 am (This post was last modified: June 6, 2014 at 9:42 am by vorlon13.)
So, (serious question here) when christ says the old laws still apply, but only lists half of the commandments to follow, is he contradicting himself ??
RE: Parts of the Bible theists on this board ignore
June 6, 2014 at 12:26 pm
(June 5, 2014 at 7:27 pm)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: I want to start collecting lines of scripture that apply either to deliberate trolling by theists, or deliberate provocation by insinuations that secular people are amoral.
I've noticed a common trend in theists who visit the board: self-righteous, conceited condemnation of secularism, accusations of immoral behavior, to outright accusations of being "Godless filth."
Specifically those who are here with intent to harass, irritate, provoke, and then claim persecution or superior "moral character" when insults are returned.
Here are some to start it off:
Colossians 3:21 You fathers, do not be exasperating your children, so that they do not become downhearted.
Ephesians 6:4 And you, fathers, do not be irritating your children, but go on bringing them up in the discipline and mental-regulating of Jehovah
Proverbs 10:18 ESV The one who conceals hatred has lying lips, and whoever utters slander is a fool.
Psalm 101:5 Whoever slanders his neighbor secretly I will destroy. Whoever has a haughty look and an arrogant heart I will not endure.
Proverbs 12:16 ESV The vexation of a fool is known at once, but the prudent ignores an insult.
Exodus 23:1 ESV “You shall not spread a false report. You shall not join hands with a wicked man to be a malicious witness."
Leviticus 19:16 ESV You shall not go around as a slanderer among your people, and you shall not stand up against the life of your neighbor: I am the Lord.
Matthew 6:14-15 ESV For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Luke 3:14 “Do not harass anybody or accuse anybody falsely, but be satisfied with your provisions.”
Psalm 36:2 For he flattereth himself in his own eyes, until his iniquity is found hateful.
Psalm 6:19 God abhors.....A false witness that speaketh lies, and soweth discord among the brethren.
1 John 2:4 ESV Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him
Why i never.
Teaching my kids to do the right thing ... what the fuk is that about, crazies, all of them. Brain washing my kid not to steal, abuse, or otherwise fuk your neighbor up the ass is flat out wrong!!!!
RE: Parts of the Bible theists on this board ignore
June 6, 2014 at 1:08 pm
(June 5, 2014 at 7:32 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: There's also the bit in 2 Thessalonians (can't be arsed to look up chapter and verse at the moment) which says, 'And for this reason, God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.'
Well, if God is willing to delude people into believing lies, then why should we trust anything that his followers say he says?
How can we even identify his true followers?
2 Corinthians 11:13-15For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, fashioning themselves into apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for even Satan fashioneth himself into an angel of light. It is no great thing therefore if his ministers also fashion themselves as ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works.
Matthew 7:21-23Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
RE: Parts of the Bible theists on this board ignore
June 6, 2014 at 1:19 pm (This post was last modified: June 6, 2014 at 1:24 pm by SteelCurtain.)
Verses about apostasy:
2 Chronicles 15:13 - That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
Deuteronomy 13:6-11 - If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
Hebrews 6:4-8 - For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.
"There remain four irreducible objections to religious faith: that it wholly misrepresents the origins of man and the cosmos, that because of this original error it manages to combine the maximum servility with the maximum of solipsism, that it is both the result and the cause of dangerous sexual repression, and that it is ultimately grounded on wish-thinking." ~Christopher Hitchens, god is not Great
PM me your email address to join the Slack chat! I'll give you a taco(or five) if you join!--->There's an app and everything!<---
RE: Parts of the Bible theists on this board ignore
June 7, 2014 at 12:02 am
(June 5, 2014 at 7:27 pm)Rampant.A.I. Wrote:
I want to start collecting lines of scripture that apply either to deliberate trolling by theists, or deliberate provocation by insinuations that secular people are amoral.
I've noticed a common trend in theists who visit the board: self-righteous, conceited condemnation of secularism, accusations of immoral behavior, to outright accusations of being "Godless filth."
Specifically those who are here with intent to harass, irritate, provoke, and then claim persecution or superior "moral character" when insults are returned.
Here are some to start it off:
Colossians 3:21 You fathers, do not be exasperating your children, so that they do not become downhearted.
Ephesians 6:4 And you, fathers, do not be irritating your children, but go on bringing them up in the discipline and mental-regulating of Jehovah
Proverbs 10:18 ESV The one who conceals hatred has lying lips, and whoever utters slander is a fool.
Psalm 101:5 Whoever slanders his neighbor secretly I will destroy. Whoever has a haughty look and an arrogant heart I will not endure.
Proverbs 12:16 ESV The vexation of a fool is known at once, but the prudent ignores an insult.
Exodus 23:1 ESV “You shall not spread a false report. You shall not join hands with a wicked man to be a malicious witness."
Leviticus 19:16 ESV You shall not go around as a slanderer among your people, and you shall not stand up against the life of your neighbor: I am the Lord.
Matthew 6:14-15 ESV For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Luke 3:14 “Do not harass anybody or accuse anybody falsely, but be satisfied with your provisions.”
Psalm 36:2 For he flattereth himself in his own eyes, until his iniquity is found hateful.
Psalm 6:19 God abhors.....A false witness that speaketh lies, and soweth discord among the brethren.
1 John 2:4 ESV Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him
I'm not understanding the correlation between your cited scriptures and the mission statement of this post. For example Colossians 3:21. The only way for this scripture to be applicable to Christians being "trolls, provoking, self-righteous, conceited condemnation of secularism, accusations of immoral behavior, to outright accusations of being "Godless filth." etc. would be if you were one of the Christian member's children. Please help me out.
I'm not asking you to "call anyone out" but some specific examples would help as well.
(June 5, 2014 at 7:32 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: There's also the bit in 2 Thessalonians (can't be arsed to look up chapter and verse at the moment) which says, 'And for this reason, God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.'
Well, if God is willing to delude people into believing lies, then why should we trust anything that his followers say he says?
Boru
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The cause of the strong delusion is a result of a person not receiving the love of the truth. If you do not want the strong delusion, repent and receive the love of the truth.
(June 5, 2014 at 7:44 pm)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: There was a guest on TTA who quoted this, and asked since Abraham was deliberately deceived, with God already knowing the outcome, and the extent of Abraham's faith, why would he ask Abraham to sacrifice his son as a "test of faith" other than a willingness to deceive?
A false dichotomy. God could have asked Abraham to sacrifice his son not so that He could learn the outcome, nor as a willingness to decieve, but rather so that Abraham could learn what kind of faith he has. It can also be viewed as a foreshadowing of another father giving His son over as a sacrifice for sin. Only in this case the son was sacrificed (no substitute was given as the Son is the substitute).
(June 5, 2014 at 7:44 pm)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: And given that, how can anyone trust anything God says? If you have children, and they have a beloved family pet that dies, what do you tell them?
The truth. That their pet died, and death is a result of sin, so Christ died on the cross, and because He was resurrected we can place our faith and trust in His work as a sacrificial attonenment, and thus have no fear of death, knowing that He has overcome it.
(June 5, 2014 at 7:44 pm)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: "Don't worry, honey, he's going to a better place." You know for a fact there is no "Puppy Heaven" or "Hamster Heaven" or a "Goldfish Heaven" in the bible, so you just lied to protect your child.
I agree there is no mention of animals being resurrected and so to tell children they are for sure in heaven is a lie (maybe they are, but we don't know). So don't tell your children lies. Are you claiming here that all Christians lie to their children about what happens to animals when they die?
(June 5, 2014 at 7:44 pm)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: How can anyone trust God isn't doing the same with the afterlife?
Please further clarify your line of reasoning here. It seems that you've stated: Christian parents lie to their children about where there pets go when they die, therefore God cannot be trusted about the afterlife. Am I understanding your argument correctly?
(June 5, 2014 at 10:59 pm)Beccs Wrote: Hey, they ignore all those parts they think shopuldn't apply to them.
You mention the OT and then they say it's not valid anymore because it is replaced with the NT.
Then they quote from the 10 commandments and ignore you when you point ot thtat they're in the OT.
What is the purpose of the 10 commandments?
(June 6, 2014 at 7:41 am)Cato Wrote: Matthew 5:17 (I think), the bit where Jesus says the law still applies.
Yes it is. Matthew 5:17-20
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
To what law is He referring? The moral law? The ceremonial law? The theocratic law of the nation of Israel?
(June 6, 2014 at 7:41 am)Cato Wrote: They don't like the fact that God thinks houses can get leprosy. They also ignore the fact that God doesn't know how to cure leprosy or if he does he's a devious lying sack of shit.
Matthew 8:1-4/Mark 1:40-45/Luke 5:12-16
(June 6, 2014 at 8:33 am)RobbyPants Wrote:
I'm not sure if this is the type of thing you want, but Jesus specifically says that unless you are as credulous as a child, you can't go to heaven!
Quote:3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
I suppose a theist could turn it around and say that because we refuse to have faith like children, we won't understand, but that's honestly a shitty argument. You could use that to justify belief in Santa Clause.
In what way is Jesus saying we are to become like children?
(June 6, 2014 at 9:24 am)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:
All the many commands to sell all you have, and give to the poor.
Luke 12
32 “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Luke 14
33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.
And more. Christians don't actually follow the commands of Jesus, never will.
Are you bearing witness that no Christian has ever nor ever will do any of the above commands?
(June 6, 2014 at 9:42 am)vorlon13 Wrote: So, (serious question here) when christ says the old laws still apply,
If Christ says the old laws still apply, how do they apply?
(June 6, 2014 at 9:42 am)vorlon13 Wrote: but only lists half of the commandments to follow, is he contradicting himself ??
Are you speaking here of Mark 10:17-25? Specifically verse 19?
(June 6, 2014 at 1:08 pm)Tonus Wrote:
How can we even identify his true followers?
2 Corinthians 11:13-15For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, fashioning themselves into apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for even Satan fashioneth himself into an angel of light. It is no great thing therefore if his ministers also fashion themselves as ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works.
Matthew 7:21-23Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
An excellent question. What do the atheist forum members think?
If it could be proven beyond doubt that God exists... and that He is the one spoken of in the Bible... would you repent of your sins and place your faith in Jesus Christ?
June 7, 2014 at 1:55 am (This post was last modified: June 7, 2014 at 2:29 am by Rampant.A.I..)
It was more a question of the discrepancy between verses like "give unto Caesar what is caesar's," verses like Luke 3:14 which seems to implicitly say harassing people who lack your belief system, and how poor behavior, intellectual dishonesty, lying, and slander is acceptable behavior to theist posters, when their own book tells them not to troll Internet forums and slander nonbelievers.
Or, to put another way:
Don't saunter into neutral territory as a born-again who converted in prison to accuse people of being amoral scum, tell a group of nonbelievers what they actually believe, and then play martyr when you reap the whirlwind.
And GC, the "lying to children" argument isn't mine. I'm referencing an argument that states:
"If God has demonstrably lied to Man for reasons we may not understand, any more than a child can understand why a parent would lie to us about Santa Claus or the death of a beloved family pet other than to protect us, why should we trust anything God tells us?
Given that God has demonstratively lied to Abraham and in other instances, how can we know any promised afterlife is real, given that parents construct the same sort of afterlife for beloved childhood pets, to protect them from the pain of ultimate loss?
What if 'God,' however defined, is merely fulfilling the same parental role?"
Like I said, it's not my argument. But it is interesting.
What if God is lying to you to protect you, for reasons you can't begin to understand?
RE: Parts of the Bible theists on this board ignore
June 7, 2014 at 11:48 pm
(June 7, 2014 at 1:55 am)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: It was more a question of the discrepancy between verses like "give unto Caesar what is caesar's," verses like Luke 3:14 which seems to implicitly say harassing people who lack your belief system, and how poor behavior, intellectual dishonesty, lying, and slander is acceptable behavior to theist posters, when their own book tells them not to troll Internet forums and slander nonbelievers.
So the discrepancy is between the way the Bible calls a Christian to live and the way you observe Christians living?
(June 7, 2014 at 1:55 am)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: Don't saunter into neutral territory as a born-again who converted in prison to accuse people of being amoral scum, tell a group of nonbelievers what they actually believe, and then play martyr when you reap the whirlwind.
"If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." A Christian is a sinner telling another sinner about Christ. A person claiming to be a Christian and claiming that they don't sin is a person deceiving themselves and without truth.
(June 7, 2014 at 1:55 am)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: Given that God has demonstratively lied to Abraham and in other instances,
How has God demonstratively lied to Abraham?
What other instances?
If it could be proven beyond doubt that God exists... and that He is the one spoken of in the Bible... would you repent of your sins and place your faith in Jesus Christ?
RE: Parts of the Bible theists on this board ignore
June 8, 2014 at 12:04 am (This post was last modified: June 8, 2014 at 12:10 am by Wyrd of Gawd.)
(June 5, 2014 at 11:42 pm)vorlon13 Wrote:
(June 5, 2014 at 10:59 pm)Beccs Wrote: Hey, they ignore all those parts they think shopuldn't apply to them.
You mention the OT and then they say it's not valid anymore because it is replaced with the NT.
Then they quote from the 10 commandments and ignore you when you point ot thtat they're in the OT.
And Jesus himself, when asked how many to keep, listed only 5!
Not that we are debating degrees here . . . oh. maybe we are.
Jesus gave a whole list of commandments believers are to keep or else they will end up in the lake of fire. He made the Law more rigid.
(June 6, 2014 at 9:24 am)Cheerful Charlie Wrote: All the many commands to sell all you have, and give to the poor.
Luke 12
32 “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Luke 14
33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.
And more. Christians don't actually follow the commands of Jesus, never will.
I'll bet that out of the current 7 billion plus people on Earth no more than 100,000 actually believe in their favorite deity, which ever one it is. And that includes the Popes.
June 8, 2014 at 1:02 am (This post was last modified: June 8, 2014 at 1:04 am by Rampant.A.I..)
(June 7, 2014 at 11:48 pm)orangebox21 Wrote:
(June 7, 2014 at 1:55 am)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: It was more a question of the discrepancy between verses like "give unto Caesar what is caesar's," verses like Luke 3:14 which seems to implicitly say harassing people who lack your belief system, and how poor behavior, intellectual dishonesty, lying, and slander is acceptable behavior to theist posters, when their own book tells them not to troll Internet forums and slander nonbelievers.
So the discrepancy is between the way the Bible calls a Christian to live and the way you observe Christians living?
However the bible "calls a Christian to live" is a non-issue. The problem arises when a given Christian starts using scripture to justify their hatred of my friends and family from one line in a book they don't take any other commandment seriously from, or violate every rule stipulated on avoiding damnation, and use my apistavism as the #1 reason I can't judge their lack of moral fortitude.
(June 7, 2014 at 11:48 pm)orangebox21 Wrote:
(June 7, 2014 at 1:55 am)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: Don't saunter into neutral territory as a born-again who converted in prison to accuse people of being amoral scum, tell a group of nonbelievers what they actually believe, and then play martyr when you reap the whirlwind.
"If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." A Christian is a sinner telling another sinner about Christ. A person claiming to be a Christian and claiming that they don't sin is a person deceiving themselves and without truth.
Agreed. I can disagree with 95% of what you have to say, but respect your fortitude. I don't understand one part of why you think your beliefs are opposed to science, because I honestly do not think you don't understand why science does not contradict any of your beliefs, outside of biblical literalism, at all, or why abiogenesis should be taken for anything other than proof that God created man "from dirt." If any part of scripture can be used to shame the nonbeliever, those same scriptures should be equally applicable to those who claim to live by them.
(June 7, 2014 at 11:48 pm)orangebox21 Wrote:
(June 7, 2014 at 1:55 am)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: Given that God has demonstratively lied to Abraham and in other instances,
How has God demonstratively lied to Abraham?
What other instances?
An omniscient being would have known the extent of Abraham's faith without having to test it by asking Abraham to sacrifice his child. He already knew the outcome by definition.
Quote:1 Kings 22:23
Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
2 Chronicles 18:22
Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.
Jeremiah 4:10
Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.
Jeremiah 20:7
O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived.
Ezekiel 14:9
And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
In addition, any instance where a supposedly omniscient being "changed his mind" is also by definition, lying:
Exodus 32:14
14 So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.
