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If I was conspiratorially minded, I might almost say Obama and Clinton intentionally supported the wrong side in the Arab spring for the purpose of toppling stable regimes and introducing doubt, uncertainty, and instability into the North Africa - Middleeast region. Once America becomes energy independent thanks to Shale oil and gas, it is to America's benefit for other areas of energy export in the world to suffer chronic instability. In addition, instability in that region is also likely to fester and become intractable problems for Russia to the north and China to the East. Basically in the long run, the mess in the middle east strengthens American's hand and weakens every other big player on the global.
I don't say this approach is not oversimplify complexities of behaviors of global politics. But based on Obama's main geopolitical direction - pivot away from middle east to Asia, and how he goes about handling its fallouts, I do believe he is person who thinks like this in handling geopolitics.
He doesn't necessarily think of what is the most important problem in geopolitics to solve. He thinks in terms of what is the problem that, if left unsolved, would create the greatest difficulties for everyone else and as a result, puts the US in the most advantageous comparative position.
Bush's puppet masters think in terms of what they imagine they can accomplish by ignoring resource limits of the US and value of American life. Obama thinks in terms of what he can accomplish for this country by leavings things undone that other country took for granted that he would do. Which is all together a more economical and subtle approach to goepolitics.
June 13, 2014 at 3:27 pm (This post was last modified: June 13, 2014 at 3:59 pm by Creed of Heresy.)
As Raeven has shown and Minimalist has said, you two can try to tell a tale of historical fiction all you want but saying it doesn't make it so.
Chuck, you are undoubtedly correct. It was naivete on the west's part to think that the middle east is capable of holding to a democratic system. Democracy cannot exist in a world in which the religion of the land dictates everything from culture to society and even to laws (Sharia).
A large number of muslims in the middle east are going to have to become much more moderate, much more open to secularism, and much more aware of the world around them before they can hope to stand a chance of having democracies.
When your religion literally means "Submission" then your lifestyle is going to be that of submission, because you already lack the basic understanding of individuality and open-mindedness. When your religious leaders are creating, instigating, and/or supporting armed militant groups who commit atrocities on a scale and in a way that is so disgusting and devoid of any semblance of humanity, and you continue to call them your spiritual leaders, you are enabling violence. When your culture is incapable of providing anything to the world and instead just mimics and copies that which the rest of the world has innovated, created, and conceived, you are nothing more than a caveman with a computer.
The middle east is, as its pervasive majority religion has intended, exactly where it was in 1066; ignorant, self-centered, and completely stagnated.
Amusingly enough, it seems many muslims are converting to Christianity. And yet they're still exactly where they were before; ignorant, gullible, and providing nothing of value to the rest of the world. No scientific breakthroughs or advancements, no new useful technology (just reverse-engineered copies of Russian and Chinese weapons; go figure it's weapons that they focus so much of their technological hunger on, the warmongering primitives...), nothing culturally or socially beneficial to the world, nothing.
Until they fix those problems, they're never gonna be able to handle the responsibility of having rule by the people. As a society, they are like children, right down to all the guys screaming that the girls have cooties. Democracy is for the adults. When they grow up, then they can have it.
Until then, their allegorical parents, the mullahs and imams, are going to be calling all the shots, and are going to be the only ones those children will listen to.
(June 13, 2014 at 2:56 pm)Chuck Wrote:
If I was conspiratorially minded, I might almost say Obama and Clinton intentionally supported the wrong side in the Arab spring for the purpose of toppling stable regimes and introducing doubt, uncertainty, and instability into the North Africa - Middleeast region. Once America becomes energy independent thanks to Shale oil and gas, it is to America's benefit for other areas of energy export in the world to suffer chronic instability. In addition, instability in that region is also likely to fester and become intractable problems for Russia to the north and China to the East. Basically in the long run, the mess in the middle east strengthens American's hand and weakens every other big player on the global.
I don't say this approach is not oversimplify complexities of behaviors of global politics. But based on Obama's main geopolitical direction - pivot away from middle east to Asia, and how he goes about handling its fallouts, I do believe he is person who thinks like this in handling geopolitics.
He doesn't necessarily think of what is the most important problem in geopolitics to solve. He thinks in terms of what is the problem that, if left unsolved, would create the greatest difficulties for everyone else and as a result, puts the US in the most advantageous comparative position.
Bush's puppet masters think in terms of what they imagine they can accomplish by ignoring resource limits of the US and value of American life. Obama thinks in terms of what he can accomplish for this country by leavings things undone that other country took for granted that he would do. Which is all together a more economical and subtle approach to goepolitics.
The world's gotten a little too used to us trying to police them. Now suddenly we've stopped, quite abruptly, and everyone's going "wait...what are WE supposed to do??"
I don't see any other nations stepping up to try to provide and/or enforce stability in the middle east. I think you pretty much nailed it. They're expecting us to take care of the problems because they think we still have a vested interest in the oil economies.
Casts an interesting light on Obama's constant push for green policies regarding sustainable energy, like solar-cells and the like...replace the economy of the oil industry with the economy of the nascent green industry...which, no matter what conservatives and cynics say/think, is something that's actually growing and starting to gain influence. Phase one out, bring another in; no economic instability if the process is gradual. Meantime, feed the energy industry with local reserves.
It's a cold, calloused strategy...but ultimately, it's how the world works. Those who think fast and act fast succeed. Those who stagnate get left in the dust and become everybody else's punching bag.
The middle east made its choice long ago and has never made any real effort to change. They decked themselves out in jewelry and fine silks when they thought they had a trump card to hold on the rest of the world. But you don't get something for nothing, at least not for very long. Once the oil is gone, and soon it will be, or at least the infrastructure and economy for it will be, they'll be back to having nothing.
Quote:Now it seems, the democunts like you, after taking credit for ending the war in Iraq...are now blaming Bush for ending it prematurely.
Wrong, stupid.... and thanks for the imitation...sincerest form of flattery, you know.... Bush is to blame for STARTING THE FUCKING WAR. Maybe you have forgotten - you seem to forget so much - but recall the early days when idiots were running their fucking mouths about how we'd be hailed as "liberators" and Iraqis would be putting flowers in the barrels of our rifles?
Yes the "we're AMERICANS and we're here to spread democracy dust on your country" shit that so many of these neo-con shitheads sold themselves without the foggiest fucking idea of what they were starting or where it would end.
Iraq is not a nation. It is a bunch of lines drawn on a map by colonial powers with no regard for the people living there. We went in and broke it and now we can't fix it.
THERE WAS NEVER ANY WAY THAT IRAQ WOULD BECOME SWITZERLAND BECAUSE GEORGE FUCKING BUSH THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA. It was never going to happen. Eventually, the region is going to segment into Sunni, Shi'a and Kurdish ethnic zones ( and watch the fucking Turks go nuts over that) who will be blowing the shit out of each other for the rest of the century. Perhaps that is the best outcome after all for the west....if not for the poor bastards living there who Bush royally fucked.
You need to accept that there are limits to military power. Armies can kill people and break things but they cannot create a nation where none exists. Idiots like you would have us occupying every third-world shithole with a company of marines so you can pound your chest and chant "We're #1." Well, fuck you. They have more shitholes than we have marines.
Quote:Perhaps that is the best outcome after all for the west....if not for the poor bastards living there who Bush royally fucked.
They made their choice, Min. They decided they wanted to be ignorant savages sticking their asses in the air and putting their foreheads on the ground praying to some invisible bearded dude in the sky. They did that for a thousand years while the rest of the world progressed. Their culture reaps the rewards their ignorance has sewn. It's not like they're innocent of it, either; they're just as ignorant, intolerant, and bigoted as their ancestors.
Those that want out of it, well, they can find a way to move to a country that isn't as violent and is progressing. Those that genuinely believe in all that shit, well...they can stay put, then.
Maybe if they'd continued being the paragons of science and learning, the arab world might've been where the rest of the world is, even sooner than the rest of the world, even. But they chose dogma and superstition and decided to keep going with that.
Sucks to be them. They're incapable of taking responsibility for themselves. Their religion means "submission." They don't know how to govern themselves, and that's their own damn fault. Maybe if they think about it really hard they might realize what the root of the problem is instead of simply just being envious of the rest of the world's success and prosperity and trying to mimic it for themselves. Maybe they'll throw off the shackles of their religion and think for themselves, the first step to being able to decide for oneself.
Remember the carnage required to bring that about in the west. The Wars of the Reformation. The 30-Years War. The enlightenment began because people finally got sick of listening to a bunch of old farts in funny hats telling them to kill for fucking jesus.
Will the muslims ever learn? Doesn't seem like it.
Yes, Turkey is going to blow circuits. Many forget that the reason they denied us access to their country as a springboard for the Iraq invasion is that they feared EXACTLY what is happening now. They knew it would happen, and they told US they knew it would happen. We should have listened.
But of course, Bush knew better than everyone. But since he, too, was guided by GAWD, he and others of his ilk must be celebrating today. It's all happening, just like the bible said it would!!! Never mind that they take the whole world down with them. This level of unrest in the ME is a game-changer. Massive instability in the world's oil supply on TWO fronts now... Ukraine AND the ME. Should be gobs of fun.
What kills me is, we turned our backs on two moderate countries at the time we invaded Iraq based on a web of lies: Turkey, which was already a democracy, and Iran, which was moving in that direction. Boy howdy, we sure showed them!!! This is how to nation-build, by gawd!!!
Quote:Experts can spin out countless other scary scenarios. Kurdish parties could be tempted to push for independence. The country could split between Shiite and Sunni Muslims. Or neighbor Iran could meddle. "On some days, I get up thinking this will be relatively quick and we will be left with a pretty good situation afterwards," says one U.S. official involved in the planning. "On other days, I wake up and think, 'Holy sh--.'"
Well, one of six came true! Should have stuck with "Holy Shit," pal.
(June 13, 2014 at 4:39 pm)Minimalist Wrote: They have more shitholes than we have marines.
LOL...I missed you man.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
