Why religion should not vanish

[Vox]

Hello

I honestly wasn't sure where to post this, but I suppose it counts as a philosophy of a sort.

Clearly, on an Athiest forum, most people here do not believe in a deity. There's several threads on here mocking and otherwise poking fun at various forms of organized religion and some indicate a desire to see religion vanish altogether.

Would the world really be better off without religion? Even if we work from the premise that all religions are entirely false, made-up fairy stories I see several merits to their continued survival.

1. Charity: Like them or loathe them organized religion has a massive input into the fields of aid work, healthcare and education. Regardless as to what they teach the movements values nonetheless empowers and inspires individuals to give up their money towards a more productive cause. Instead of buying a new PC game, little Timmy the devout Christian might give his pocket money to fund some Kenyan girls education.

2. Crime prevention: Several religions use rather dubious standards as to what constitutes a crime but belief in the concept of an eternal judgement is quite a useful trait to be adopted by the public. You can't have a camera in every home but Allah/Krishna/Osiris sees all, and the threat of divine retribution while not off putting to all believers will certainly dissuade some from committing crimes.

3. Ethics: While some standards of ethics propagated by some religions can be described as barbaric at best the general core base (don't steal, don't kill, don't rape) are more or less universal. Let's be frank, most of humanity is pretty dense and either can't understand or won't use the finer points of philosophical schools such as Stoicism or Taoism to form a code of ethics. Religion takes all the hassle out of it, and spoon feeds a code of conduct to believers. Supposing this code can be tweaked to a more modern standard as the Episcopalians have done rather successfully (i,e: They believe in Jesus but also think it's cool to be gay now) it does seem to be the most effective method of instilling a sense of morality.

4. Common cause: With perhaps an exception to the Pagan Roman Empire who chose to integrate foreign religions and cultures with their own one of the most successful methods in history to unite people together for a common cause is to join them under the banner of God. Faith is a transcendental quality, and can lead to humans forgetting about divides such as culture, language or race and focus on a quality shared amongst all of them, their faith. The Crusades, The Islamic conquests, the Reconquista and the Third Reich are all examples of where faith (or a cult of personality) have gathered people of various types together to accomplish a goal that would have otherwise been impossible. Certainly, these examples were all martial in their goals but what is to prevent the Pope or an Ayatollah calling for a "Crusade" against illness, or a "war" against poverty? This is a power that could be channeled into more constructive ends.

I could list more, but I think this should get the ball rolling. Even if God does not exist, I think there is much merit to encouraging the idea of faith and of the existence of a deity.

As Voltaire once said, if God didn't exist we'd have to invent him.

[Chad32]

1: charity has little to do with religion

2: pedophile priests and laws preventing equality kind of negate the "crime prevention" aspect. The eternal judgement is far removed from any just system anyway. at least as far as christianity goes.

3: most, if not all, the good ethics listed in the bible are older than the religion itsself. The golden rule being a good example.

4: common cause is better suited to things that aren't blatantly devisive.

I know your description just says theist, and not christian, but christianity is the religion I know best, so I comment in regards to that.

[Napoléon]

1. Charity

Not exclusive to religion. Null point.

2. Crime prevention

Crimes committed in the name of religion.
Crimes committed despite religion.
Religion doesn't have a monopoly on morality.
Null point.

3. Ethics

See above.

4. Common cause

Why can't science provide this? Or humanism? Or any other political belief?



I really don't buy that humanity needs religion. Religion does not have the monopoly on morality or hope or progression.

[The Grand Nudger]

Would the world really be better off without religion? Even if we work from the premise that all religions are entirely false, made-up fairy stories I see several merits to their continued survival.

Better, I don't know, but at least not shitty for the same tired old reasons. My grandfather used to say something along the lines of "when you don't know whats wrong, start getting rid of everything that isn't right". A quixotic saying, but the gist is there. None of the things you listed are an intrinsic value -of religion-. Religion can be with them or without them, as just about anything else can. Which is to say, that you could have all 4 without religion. Any added negative baggage that comes with religion makes the equation entirely one-sided. Number 1 is a non issue, secular charity has far surpassed the coin thrown at the plebs. It's hard to beat ole Uncle Sam. 2 is grotesque. Eternal judgement for transgressions which happen in the blink of an eye erodes the concept of justice and law...just as the main tenets of major beliefs erode our concept of ethics et all (vicarious redemption, for example). In listing common causes you showed precisely how a secular goal can be achieved by a secular process with secular resources - for good or ill, while invoking tha nazzees, so boss. Again, religion offers nothing we can't get elsewhere, without all the garbage preloaded.

[Vox]

1: charity has little to do with religion

I agree, and it takes place apart from it but we cannot deny religion is a big motivator for people. The Catholic Church is the single biggest provider of healthcare for AIDS sufferers in the world, just as it practically single-handedly supports the education system in Ireland, Portugal and most of Latin America.

I find myself unsure who would be moved to take up this task should Catholicism vanish.

2: pedophile priests and laws preventing equality kind of negate the "crime prevention" aspect. The eternal judgement is far removed from any just system anyway. at least as far as christianity goes.

I agree there are exceptions, but for the average lay believer it has a powerful impact upon their behavior. My great grandmother for instance would recoil at the thought of eating meat on a friday, just as my grandmother was mortified by the idea of pre marital sex. Neither of them would have ever dreamed of taking part in either of those activities or any others forbidden by the Catholic Church at that time.

3: most, if not all, the good ethics listed in the bible are older than the religion itsself. The golden rule being a good example.

Indeed, but again the religion itself is a tried and tested vehicle for instilling this code of ethics into the beliver. I don't see many Catholic schoolchildren sat with copies of Plato's republic or Aristotelian commentaries but they get a good big old dose of Platonism every time they go to a Catechism class.

4: common cause is better suited to things that aren't blatantly devisive.

Exactly what I am suggesting, as eccentric as they are the moonies are a prime example of this. Clearly, I don't suspect they ever have any chance of achieving their aims what with the scandals within or since the death of their founder but they strive to unite all religions and nations under one banner, that of God and a sense of shared humanity. That seems quite constructive to me.

I know your description just says theist, and not christian, but christianity is the religion I know best, so I comment in regards to that.

Absolutely fine, this could be applied to any religion really (short of parodies like LaVey Satanism or something).

[The Grand Nudger]

Meat and premarital sex mortified your (clearly decent) grandfolks..but somehow the same system failed to mortify all the assorted thugs, murderers, and rapist from then to now? I think the mortifier is broken. It needs to mortify shitty people....not people who are already in the clear. Just for starters.

[SteelCurtain]

I agree, and it takes place apart from it but we cannot deny religion is a big motivator for people. The Catholic Church is the single biggest provider of healthcare for AIDS sufferers in the world, just as it practically single highhandedly supports the education system in Ireland, Portugal and most of Latin America.

I find myself unsure who would be moved to take up this task should Catholicism vanish.

It is also the single biggest CAUSE of fucking AIDS, by refusing to accept that people are going to have sex, and opposing and demonizing condom use. It also is the leading cause of physical and sexual child abuse in Ireland. The fact remains that without the church and its 10% drain on society, people would fill the vacuum with less antiquated and fear based solutions to real world problems.

I agree there are exceptions, but for the average lay believer it has a powerful impact upon their behavior. My great grandmother for instance would recoil at the thought of eating meat on a friday, just as my grandmother was mortified by the idea of pre marital sex. Neither of them would have ever dreamed of taking part in either of those activities or any others forbidden by the Catholic Church at that time.

Again, without religion, people have every capability to act in an ethical way. Society is built on certain rules for a reason, because society as a whole is more successful with those rules in place. This has nothing to do with religion. I would question whether a person is moral or ethical in the first place if the only reason they are acting in that way is so that they reap some eternal reward or avoid some eternal punishment.

Indeed, but again the religion itself is a tried and tested vehicle for instilling this code of ethics into the beliver. I don't see many Catholic schoolchildren sat with copies of Plato's republic or Aristotelian commentaries but they get a good big old dose of Platonism every time they go to a Catechism class.

Clearly you are Catholic. If you think that the stories in the Bible are good source material for teaching someone ethics, then please state the region of the earth you inhabit so I can stay away. The Bible is a mish-mash of racism, mysoginism, homophobia, hatred, genocide, child rape, and ritual murder. I'll pass.

Exactly what I am suggesting, as eccentric as they are the moonies are a prime example of this. Clearly, I don't suspect they ever have any chance of achieving their aims what with the scandals within or since the death of their founder but they strive to unite all religions and nations under one banner, that of God and a sense of shared humanity. That seems quite constructive to me.

It seems quite unachievable to me. Humanity is by nature sectarian. There are always going to be people that have vastly different beliefs than others. There are always going to be truthers, conspiracy theorists, and religious nutjobs. The topics will change, but the people will always be there.

[Vox]

Meat and premarital sex mortified your (clearly decent) grandfolks..but somehow the same system failed to mortify all the assorted thugs, murderers, and rapist from then to now? I think the mortifier is broken. It needs to mortify shitty people....not people who are already in the clear. Just for starters.

Indeed, for some like Hitler the threat of divine wrath wasn't enough, but does the same not ring true in secular countries? We still have rapists and thieves despite the threat of the death penalty or life imprisonment. The point is however the law itself is still deterrent enough for the majority of the masses.

The difference is though that to the believer a divine law is far more powerful than any secular threat. A Judge can only condemn you for however long you have left to live, Orcus can torment you forever and ever. Who's going to get their ass kissed and whims pandered to more?

Clearly this is a problem when Venus craves the blood of the infidel, but if we're working on the premise that there is no God some rather clever little theologian shouldn't have too much of a problem changing that to "Venus wants rapists to be put behind bars" and propagating that value amongst the public.

It is also the single biggest CAUSE of fucking AIDS, by refusing to accept that people are going to have sex, and opposing and demonizing condom use. It also is the leading cause of physical and sexual child abuse in Ireland. The fact remains that without the church and its 10% drain on society, people would fill the vacuum with less antiquated and fear based solutions to real world problems.

Indeed it is, and I personally do not agree with that stance. That is not the point I was focusing on however, my point there is that religion itself, irrespective of the belief system itself is the motivator for public works. Yes, Catholicism has a great deal to answer for but we can't deny how many countries rely upon the support it offers with remarkably little cost.

A secular agency would cost multi millions to be persuaded to fly over to Ireland and take over the education system, the Catholic Church is willing to do it for a few nods of respect and an hour in a church every sunday.

Again, without religion, people have every capability to act in an ethical way. Society is built on certain rules for a reason, because society as a whole is more successful with those rules in place. This has nothing to do with religion. I would question whether a person is moral or ethical in the first place if the only reason they are acting in that way is so that they reap some eternal reward or avoid some eternal punishment.

I don't doubt they have that capacity but this is the thing Steelcurtain, not all humans are ethical or remotley nice. I have watched several "good" religious confess that if there were no god they would think nothing of raping and stealing if they could get away with it. To these foul creatures, Religion is the only thing keeping them on a leash. I would prefer that they remain docile and restrained rather than loose to prey on the naive.

Secular law is not enough to dissuade them, death is just basically a game over to them. I'd rather turn it into something unpleasant to make them think twice about seeking it or bringing it upon others so soon.

Clearly you are Catholic. If you think that the stories in the Bible are good source material for teaching someone ethics, then please state the region of the earth you inhabit so I can stay away. The Bible is a mish-mash of racism, mysoginism, homophobia, hatred, genocide, child rape, and ritual murder. I'll pass.

Me? Oh..I don't have a clue what I am anymore. I'm not a practicing Catholic I'm sure of that. I'm only picking out examples, I'll use any other scripture you like to base my claims. How about the Upanishads? The Tao, The doctrine of the mean? Pick any other one you like, I'm not referring specifically to the bible here.

It seems quite unachievable to me. Humanity is by nature sectarian. There are always going to be people that have vastly different beliefs than others. There are always going to be truthers, conspiracy theorists, and religious nutjobs. The topics will change, but the people will always be there.

Unless they are compelled to change and adapt to a new world view I think the Romans got closest to this, clearly I don't like their methods but we can feel the immense impact they had upon western society even today. At the core they themselves were motivated by faith, they believed they were the Children of Mars, and the world was theirs for the taking.

[The Grand Nudger]

Indeed, for some like Hitler the threat of divine wrath wasn't enough, but does the same not ring true in secular countries? We still have rapists and thieves despite the threat of the death penalty or life imprisonment.

We do, but they (our legal systems) are fallible, incomplete, and constantly under revision. Can you offer a religion ready to abandon a core tenet when it conflicts with the interest of law? In what way, then, would it continue to be a religion?

The point is however the law itself is still deterrent enough for the majority of the masses.

But still a necessary deterrent, so far as we can tell. What is necessarry about religion as it applies to law?

The difference is though that to the believer a divine law is far more powerful than any secular threat. A Judge can only condemn you for however long you have left to live, Orcus can torment you forever and ever. Who's going to get their ass kissed and whims pandered to more?

A question that suicide bombers have answered very clearly, as you mention below. Aren't you making the case -for-...not -against- the practical value of religion?

Clearly this is a problem when Venus craves the blood of the infidel, but if we're working on the premise that there is no God some rather clever little theologian shouldn't have too much of a problem changing that to "Venus wants rapists to be put behind bars" and propagating that value amongst the public.

Sure...if you have a system capable of creating that effect you could make that happen..-or-...you could demand the blood..even if there is no god (which is what we see anyway). I don't know that I'd advocate such a system myself. Especially since we don't have to invoke Venus at all..whether Venus commands it or it's just the law the effect is the same. She's unnecessary baggage, as I've mentioned.

Mostly this seems to be a sort of "level the ground" kind of thing..which is baffling. Both systems working...the one at least has the godly baggage - whereas the other does not. Get rid of the godly baggage and you aren't left with much "religion" as you seem to be using the term.

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A secular agency would cost multi millions to be persuaded to fly over to Ireland and take over the education system, the Catholic Church is willing to do it for a few nods of respect and an hour in a church every sunday.

...and respect, and cultural deference, and tax exempt status...don't forget the tax status. There are other things that the church in Ireland gets as compensation for such a service, close to kids and all...but I'll let those who enjoy it more take that one and run with it.

[Minimalist]

The Catholic Church is the single biggest provider of healthcare for AIDS sufferers in the world,

Um - with shithead popes mouthing off against condom use they are also the single biggest reason for the spread of AIDS in the world.

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-wor...-91al.html


All they care about is spreading their absurd dogma and they will use any mechanism to do so. Their "charity" which largely consists of collecting money from the sheep rather than spending their own, serves to advance their propaganda mill.