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RE: No True Scotsman
June 19, 2014 at 4:18 pm
(June 19, 2014 at 3:38 pm)Lek Wrote: (June 19, 2014 at 3:03 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: Did Jesus tell us about Hell? And what awaits us there? And the only way to escape it?
Yes, he did.
Then he is responsible for the direct consequences of his teachings. At the very least, if we believe that Jesus was a mortal man who is now dead and unable to correct his more out-of-control followers, Christianity is responsible for the atrocities that result from the teachings of Hell and the faith-based scheme of salvation.
It's the terrors of Hell and the fervor to fight the Devil that drove the atrocities. These tenets are central to Christian theology and part of the teachings of Jesus.
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RE: No True Scotsman
June 19, 2014 at 4:19 pm
(This post was last modified: June 19, 2014 at 4:20 pm by Lek.)
(June 19, 2014 at 4:11 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Is there anything christianity has done for the world that can't be done by any other group? Aside from "saving" your "soul" from "hell". None of which have been proven to exist.
I'm not sure. Maybe "saving your soul" is the only one that couldn't be carried out by some other secular group.
(June 19, 2014 at 4:18 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: It's the terrors of Hell and the fervor to fight the Devil that drove the atrocities.
I don't think you can prove that statement.
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RE: No True Scotsman
June 19, 2014 at 4:21 pm
(June 19, 2014 at 4:15 pm)Lek Wrote: Give me some examples so I can respond.
God says ditch the foreskin. Jesus says do what God commands. Paul comes along and claimed the suits weren't serious about that bit.
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No True Scotsman
June 19, 2014 at 4:21 pm
(This post was last modified: June 19, 2014 at 4:23 pm by Bibliofagus.)
(June 19, 2014 at 4:19 pm)Lek Wrote: (June 19, 2014 at 4:11 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Is there anything christianity has done for the world that can't be done by any other group? Aside from "saving" your "soul" from "hell". None of which have been proven to exist.
I'm not sure. Maybe "saving your soul" is the only one that couldn't be carried out by some other secular group.
Why not? You told me the bible was not nessecary.
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RE: No True Scotsman
June 19, 2014 at 4:32 pm
Quote:We don't ignore the old testament at all. It shows the creation and the fall of mankind and the consequences suffered as a result. It also shows how God carried out his plan to send us the messiah and save us from our plight. It's the story of a people awaiting the messiah, which is fulfilled in the new testament.
Yeah, I know. You like the stories about Adam and Eve, the Tower of Babel, Noah's Ark, the exodus, the Ten Commandments, and the part that says homosexuality is wrong. It's just the parts saying slavery is ok except for Jewish people, which includes a loophole that permits Jewish slaves anyway. Or the part regarding rape where the victim is made to marry her rapist, or that it's ok to keep the virgins of the villages you slaughtered as your sex slaves, but if they don't plase you because presumably they hate you, you can shave their heads and throw them out on the street. Or all the verses about killing innocent children for the crimes of their parents.
The bible loves to talk about how bad Humans are, and praise the lord for loving us anyway, while ignoring the hypocrisy and narcissism of their deity. We're evil because we can't meet a standard that's purposefully set too high, then we're told we deserve eternal hellfire for finite crimes, just so we can beg for mercy from the creature that inflicted this on us in the first place. A creature that has clearly failed to improve Humanity, judging by the history of its followers. the only solitary reason this religion has lasted as long as it did is by force and fear.
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RE: No True Scotsman
June 19, 2014 at 4:36 pm
(This post was last modified: June 19, 2014 at 4:42 pm by Lek.)
(June 19, 2014 at 4:21 pm)Bibliofagus Wrote: (June 19, 2014 at 4:19 pm)Lek Wrote: I'm not sure. Maybe "saving your soul" is the only one that couldn't be carried out by some other secular group.
Why not? You told me the bible was not nessecary.
I told you that people who had no opportunity to hear or read the bible wouldn't be held accountable for what they didn't know. You're right that the bible is not necessary for salvation, but those islanders who are saved by responding to what God has shown them are still saved by Christ's sacrifice. Without Christ nobody would have salvation whether they know of him or not. The bible helps lead us to Christ.
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RE: No True Scotsman
June 19, 2014 at 4:37 pm
(June 19, 2014 at 4:02 pm)Lek Wrote: As has been said before, we're not under the old Jewish law. Those laws were given to people under God's wrath. After the sacrifice of Christ we are now live under God's grace because he paid the penalty for sin. Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law and that nothing would disappear from the law until everything is accomplished. After his life, death and resurrection the fulfillment was accomplished.
Couple things: one, when you're trying to tell us that slavery as depicted in the bible was just prisoners of war and volunteers, and that's a demonstrable falsehood, then it doesn't matter if the New Testament supersedes the old or not, because that's still in the bible, and you're still wrong.
Secondly, Jesus never repeals or alters the rules for slavery at all, so you have absolutely no basis for claiming that things would be any different in the New Testament, especially when Jesus was all "business as usual, boys!" with regards to slavery. So again, your claim that this was happy nice slavery and not the kind we associate with the word is utter bullshit.
Thirdly, I guess you've abandoned the ten commandments then, if the Old Testament is dead and buried, right? And you tell all your christian friends not to bother with the ten commandments either?
If Jesus has paid the price for sin, doesn't that render all your No True Sotsman-ing completely pointless, anyway? What you're basically saying is that you can be the biggest monster in the history of the world, accept Jesus, and be home free.
If you want to talk about Christ's teachings, that's your New Testament legacy; one big blank check for bad behavior, just so long as you pray about it later. And you have the gall to tell us that the bad actions of christians don't reflect on the religion, when the core tenet of your faith is the absolution of any guilt, no matter how harsh the crime, for free, forever?
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RE: No True Scotsman
June 19, 2014 at 4:41 pm
(This post was last modified: June 19, 2014 at 4:42 pm by DeistPaladin.)
(June 19, 2014 at 4:19 pm)Lek Wrote: Quote: It's the terrors of Hell and the fervor to fight the Devil that drove the atrocities.
I don't think you can prove that statement.
Did they not claim this to be their motivation? From Torquemada to the Salem Witch Trials, fighting the devil and saving more souls for all eternity was the rallying cry.
"They lied", I can hear you protest, "they had political motives!"
Glossing over how there's no proof to bolster that defense, what of their followers? Could their followers not be easily whipped into their murderous frenzy over the same motives? Was this not a powerful motive that could be used to convince others even if the leaders themselves didn't believe it?
Hell *IS* terrifying. The Christian faith *IS* supposedly the only escape. The devil *IS* said to be a force of pure evil and the only alternative master if you reject Jesus. How can such terrifying beliefs not result in atrocities, time and time again?
This is what makes Islamo-Christianity so dangerous.
...and Jesus watches it all and says and does nothing.
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... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: No True Scotsman
June 19, 2014 at 5:00 pm
(June 19, 2014 at 4:37 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Couple things: one, when you're trying to tell us that slavery as depicted in the bible was just prisoners of war and volunteers, and that's a demonstrable falsehood, then it doesn't matter if the New Testament supersedes the old or not, because that's still in the bible, and you're still wrong.
Just because something is in the bible doesn't indicate whether is it's right or wrong. We don't stone adulterers any more or kill kids for disobeying their parents. It also speaks of wrongs done by people that God never condoned.
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RE: No True Scotsman
June 19, 2014 at 5:03 pm
(June 19, 2014 at 5:00 pm)Lek Wrote: Just because something is in the bible doesn't indicate whether is it's right or wrong. We don't stone adulterers any more or kill kids for disobeying their parents. It also speaks of wrongs done by people that God never condoned.
If our standard of good and evil is extra biblical, of what use is the Bible as a moral guide?
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