Which was first: Atheism or Religion?

[bennyboy]

I think this has to go down to semantics. What is the difference, for example, between superstition and religion? Where does a belief in spirits stand, or in destiny?

[fr0d0]

The cave man says "Ug! Show me the evidence!". He was unable to think beyond what he could sense.

[ManMachine]

If atheism was first, then religion was created by atheists.

Atheism exists as a reaction to theism (hence 'a-theism'), so religion came first. You need to create the notion of a god before the opportunity to assert they do not exist arises.

MM

[Esquilax]

The cave man says "Ug! Show me the evidence!". He was unable to think beyond what he could sense.

What basis could you possibly have for determining that things are real beyond the evidence you can detect? The only other alternative is baseless thoughts in a vacuum, and how do you determine which of those conform to reality and which don't? For that matter, how do you figure out which are just wishful thinking?

[fr0d0]

Yes you are that cave man Esq

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

The cave man says "Ug! Show me the evidence!". He was unable to think beyond what he could sense.

*shrug* They clearly had a sense of an afterlife, based on some of the grave goods we've found.

I doubt very much that the inability of early humans to think beyond their senses is a tenable notion. If Oog drops a gourd full of water, he senses that the ground gets wet. It isn't much of a leap for him to 'think beyond his senses' and postulate that the Great Gourd Dropper In The Sky is responsible for rain. To a point, the more primitively minded one is, the more likely one is to postulate all sorts of loopy, unsubstantiated ideas. Atheism represents a positive evolutionary development of the ability to reason, not the other way round.

Boru

[LastPoet]

Atheism exists as a reaction to theism (hence 'a-theism'), so religion came first. You need to create the notion of a god before the opportunity to assert they do not exist arises.

MM

Agreed. In fewer words, you have to see bullshit to call it.

[Esquilax]

Yes you are that cave man Esq

So you don't use evidence or observations of the world in your determination that god exists? You just decide that he exists, and then... that's it? No confirmation, no basis for the thought? You just think it, and therefore it is so?

[fr0d0]

The cave man says "Ug! Show me the evidence!". He was unable to think beyond what he could sense.

*shrug* They clearly had a sense of an afterlife, based on some of the grave goods we've found.

I doubt very much that the inability of early humans to think beyond their senses is a tenable notion. If Oog drops a gourd full of water, he senses that the ground gets wet. It isn't much of a leap for him to 'think beyond his senses' and postulate that the Great Gourd Dropper In The Sky is responsible for rain. To a point, the more primitively minded one is, the more likely one is to postulate all sorts of loopy, unsubstantiated ideas. Atheism represents a positive evolutionary development of the ability to reason, not the other way round.

Boru

The term is a loose characterisation of course. What you're describing are the beginnings of rationalisation.

[Bad Wolf]

Oh frodo is being an asshole on another thread! What a surprise!