A question for Anti-Theists

[Dystopia]

Personally I am not an anti theist, just an agnostic atheist, I do not have a problem with religion, mainly because in my case it has never affected me negatively nor has it prejudiced my life in any way. I live in a secular country where religious beliefs (or lack of them) are kept to oneself and do not influence public/political decisions. And b sides that, my girlfriend is a Christian so it would be pretty bad if I was an anti theist.

Regarding anti theism, sometimes I get in doubt because I really don't understand if anti theists are against religion (what seems to be the case) or if they are also against theism in general, against the simple act of believing in a deity (even if one doesn't follow any religion)? Are they against people such as deists or pantheists?

I think the reason that thrives people to be anti theists is mainly because of the harm religion has brought into our world, and the fact there is no evidence to indicate any deity or religion is true. Other anti theists certainly have experienced bad moments with theists, this can also contribute. A lot of them also know the concept of god is man made. I don't know if this answers the problem since I'm not an anti theist, but I hope it helps

[The Grand Nudger]

Personally I am not an anti theist, just an agnostic atheist, I do not have a problem with religion, mainly because in my case it has never affected me negatively nor has it prejudiced my life in any way. I live in a secular country where religious beliefs (or lack of them) are kept to oneself and do not influence public/political decisions. And b sides that, my girlfriend is a Christian so it would be pretty bad if I was an anti theist.

The anti-theist might make the case that religion has affected you, that you probably wouldn't be able to find something in which religion isn't already deeply embedded (your public/political decisions...in your "secular" country). My wife is a christian, it's pretty good. Just as counterexamples from anti-theism..lol.

Regarding anti theism, sometimes I get in doubt because I really don't understand if anti theists are against religion (what seems to be the case) or if they are also against theism in general, against the simple act of believing in a deity (even if one doesn't follow any religion)? Are they against people such as deists or pantheists?

We, as much as I can claim this, are against theistic belief.

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from this time forward, your culture will service ours

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I think the reason that thrives people to be anti theists is mainly because of the harm religion has brought into our world, and the fact there is no evidence to indicate any deity or religion is true. Other anti theists certainly have experienced bad moments with theists, this can also contribute. A lot of them also know the concept of god is man made. I don't know if this answers the problem since I'm not an anti theist, but I hope it helps

The concept of a god is not only man-made, it is a wicked, corrupting concept. Even if it were true, I could not, in good moral conscience, bend the knee - or become complicit. -theres anti theism for you. I could berate our resident baha'i for his "morally disgusting religion", for example (and that's a rough one..cause those folks are really sweet, really decent). It's a very strong claim about a very specific thing.

[Dystopia]

Personally I am not an anti theist, just an agnostic atheist, I do not have a problem with religion, mainly because in my case it has never affected me negatively nor has it prejudiced my life in any way. I live in a secular country where religious beliefs (or lack of them) are kept to oneself and do not influence public/political decisions. And b sides that, my girlfriend is a Christian so it would be pretty bad if I was an anti theist.

The anti-theist might make the case that religion has affected you, that you probably wouldn't be able to find something in which religion isn't already deeply embedded (your public/political decisions...in your "secular" country). My wife is a christian, it's pretty good. Just as counterexamples from anti-theism..lol.

I agree with you that religion is 'already deeply embedded', but this is something that can hardly be changed. Like one of my professors told me, Christianity influenced western civilization so strongly that even Gnostic Atheists defend principles, values and ideas that identify with Christianity, even if they completely despise religion. I think it is ok to accept historical influence caused by religion, after all, it is a part of our culture and who we are, but this doesn't mean I accept religion or embrace any religion. For instance, you could argue that defending the principle of helping your neighbor is a Christian 'thing' to do, and I support this principle (with moderation), just like my political ideas and opinions can be influenced by Christianity (in my case, it is the predominant religion), even though I doubt it, I support secularism and religious freedom, religion should not dictate public decisions - Would you consider, let's say, defending Human Rights something influenced by religion?

I'd also like to ask what was the purpose of putting the word 'secularism' between commas as if it was a fake secularism, in my country, despite the predominance of Christianity (70% more or less), there is an Atheist associations to defend atheists rights, just like religious organizations for other minor religions are allow, there is not a special benefit given to Christianity and a simple evidence that it doesn't influence public decisions is the legalization of gay marriage, abortion, and gay adoption is also on it's way.

Were you saying your wife is a Christian? So if you're an anti-theist, how do you get along so fine? I'm guessing it's just as an ultra conservative dating a communist

[The Grand Nudger]

Why can't we do anything about how deeply embedded religion might be? We try to make changes to other deeply embedded things (slavery and racism in my country) so why not this? "It's really hard" isn;t a very good reason not to try, to me. I can accept the historical influence of religion just as well, and then insist that we strive to make it just that - historical.

Would you consider, let's say, defending Human Rights something influenced by religion?

I would say that you simply cannot defend human rights at all from the point of view of religion. From the point of view of religion human beings don't have rights, they have a list of responsibilities. What is the method of redress in religion if you feel that the cosmic authority has trampled your "rights"? Worship harder. Gods wipe their asses with our human rights on principle alone. So yeah, I'[d say that defending human rights has been an uphill battle with all the nutjobs in the world consulting fairies before they consult their own collective human experience. Even when they aren't in the way - they're just bogging us (and that us includes themselves) down.

I'd also like to ask what was the purpose of putting the word 'secularism' between commas as if it was a fake secularism, in my country, despite the predominance of Christianity (70% more or less), there is an Atheist associations to defend atheists rights, just like religious organizations for other minor religions are allow, there is not a special benefit given to Christianity and a simple evidence that it doesn't influence public decisions is the legalization of gay marriage, abortion, and gay adoption is also on it's way.

I'm sure that your country is just as secular as mine, in fact it sounds like the same country. I'm also sure that the decision to classify a country as "secular" has no effect on whether or not their policies actually are secular.

Were you saying your wife is a Christian? So if you're an anti-theist, how do you get along so fine? I'm guessing it's just as an ultra conservative dating a communist

Indeed, we get along the same way that anyone else does. Common interests, common goals. Mutual respect, shared experiences, communication. That sort of thing. We're two adult human beings in a deeply committed relationship with each other. We both, being adults, understand that we do not always have to agree, that we may see faults in each other (to be honest, a person who can't spot my faults isn't even dating material, let alone marriage material) and each others reasoning. I don't like everything about my wife's position on religion....I don't even know everything about my wife's position on religion - but that's okay, that's normal, I still love my wife. I think she has one terrible idea, but it doesn't invalidate the mountain of good ideas I also think she has.

In the end, she doesn't drag our kids to church and I don;t teach them how to be god-hating heathens. This arrangement has worked for us so far.

[Dystopia]

Why can't we do anything about how deeply embedded religion might be? We try to make changes to other deeply embedded things (slavery and racism in my country) so why not this? "It's really hard" isn;t a very good reason not to try, to me. I can accept the historical influence of religion just as well, and then insist that we strive to make it just that - historical.

Would you consider, let's say, defending Human Rights something influenced by religion?

I would say that you simply cannot defend human rights at all from the point of view of religion. From the point of view of religion human beings don't have rights, they have a list of responsibilities. What is the method of redress in religion if you feel that the cosmic authority has trampled your "rights"? Worship harder. Gods wipe their asses with our human rights on principle alone. So yeah, I'[d say that defending human rights has been an uphill battle with all the nutjobs in the world consulting fairies before they consult their own collective human experience. Even when they aren't in the way - they're just bogging us (and that us includes themselves) down.

I'd also like to ask what was the purpose of putting the word 'secularism' between commas as if it was a fake secularism, in my country, despite the predominance of Christianity (70% more or less), there is an Atheist associations to defend atheists rights, just like religious organizations for other minor religions are allow, there is not a special benefit given to Christianity and a simple evidence that it doesn't influence public decisions is the legalization of gay marriage, abortion, and gay adoption is also on it's way.

I'm sure that your country is just as secular as mine, in fact it sounds like the same country. I'm also sure that the decision to classify a country as "secular" has no effect on whether or not their policies actually are secular.

Were you saying your wife is a Christian? So if you're an anti-theist, how do you get along so fine? I'm guessing it's just as an ultra conservative dating a communist

Indeed, we get along the same way that anyone else does. Common interests, common goals. Mutual respect, shared experiences, communication. That sort of thing. We're two adult human beings in a deeply committed relationship with each other. We both, being adults, understand that we do not always have to agree, that we may see faults in each other (to be honest, a person who can't spot my faults isn't even dating material, let alone marriage material) and each others reasoning. I don't like everything about my wife's position on religion....I don't even know everything about my wife's position on religion - but that's okay, that's normal, I still love my wife. I think she has one terrible idea, but it doesn't invalidate the mountain of good ideas I also think she has.

In the end, she doesn't drag our kids to church and I don;t teach them how to be god-hating heathens. This arrangement has worked for us so far.

I'd like to ask you common examples in first world countries of public decisions indirectly influenced by religion without people noticing it... And making gay marriage or abortion illegal isn't valid because some states have already legalized

I think everybody should stand for human/fundamental rights, independently of belief, but I agree partially.

Well the fact religion is fading away and young people are becoming less and less religious is undoubtedly a positive sign of secularism

Well I respect that, it's good that you and your wife can get along fine despite having radically different beliefs

I'd like to ask you, out of sheer curiosity, what made you become an anti-theist? Most anti-theists I know mainly criticize religion but rarely theism by itself, theism is not synonymous with religion, I could call myself anti-religious at most, but agnostic theists or deists have never bothered me, most of these people are reasonably intelligent and are open minded to discussion, why are you against theism per se if it doesn't hurt anyone by itself, only with religion? Same goes for deism and pantheism

[The Grand Nudger]

I'd like to ask you common examples in first world countries of public decisions indirectly influenced by religion without people noticing it... And making gay marriage or abortion illegal isn't valid because some states have already legalized

Sin taxes. There's a bunch of examples for you right there. Very healthy business for my government. If you want to take a look at those we can do that, or I can offer something else up - it's your call.

I'd like to ask you, out of sheer curiosity, what made you become an anti-theist?

I value human life, human experience, and human authority in human affairs. I see alot of room for humans there, and none for gods. My sense of ethics and morality simply cannot include things like religion in the box of positives. Gods have failed to provide...and have actively made our situation worse..time and time again...for all of recorded history. They've managed to do this...regardless of whether or not they actually exist - and that's some powerful juju right there! The ideologies expressed within them, are, to me abhorrent and inhuman. I feel this strongly - and that's how I became an anti-theist. Ironically, it all started because I love a good lie well told to the right audience. I love stories, tall tales, myths, allegory, metaphor.

Most anti-theists I know mainly criticize religion but rarely theism by itself, theism is not synonymous with religion, I could call myself anti-religious at most, but agnostic theists or deists have never bothered me, most of these people are reasonably intelligent and are open minded to discussion, why are you against theism per se if it doesn't hurt anyone by itself, only with religion? Same goes for deism and pantheism

I think that theism does "hurt" even without religion. Does there actually have to be a church of hatred - for example, for hateful things to be harmful? No. Is malice required for a human being to do something shitty to another? No - it could just as easily be accidental.

Now....deists....... I see their position as a refinement of a much more troubling one. However...I find it curious that in all that refinement one thing they absolutely decided to keep was the very source of all that troubling stuff to begin with. In any case, I have a longstanding disagreement with deists. I don't think that what they call a god actually describes a god - if the word god can be used to describe any of these other concepts floating around. They don't, to me, seem to belong to the same set. The only firm similarity (in my experience..deists, come destroy me) is the word each group chooses to leverage as a header for the concept.

[Bibliofagus]

Religiously coloured laws? In Holland transgendered people getting an operation are required to also remove their reproductive organs. Tomorrow this law will die, much to the chagrin of our lovely christian parties who have been in power from 1945 up until 1990. Holland has traditionally got a very secular stance on these things, and most of us are tolerant towards gays etc. But on this issue many secular people, without realizing it, have a knee jerk reaction and it's because of religion and how it's intertwined with culture. At least: that's what I think.

[Dystopia]

Sin taxes. There's a bunch of examples for you right there. Very healthy business for my government. If you want to take a look at those we can do that, or I can offer something else up - it's your call.

Sin taxes? What do you mean by sin taxes? Taxes on tobacco, alcohol and pollutant products? At least in Fiscal/Tax Law we use the 'Sin taxes' terminology for these kind of taxes, but they have several justifications behind them. Do you have more relevant examples behind taxes?

I too think deism is still wishful thinking, the same goes for agnostic theism (without religious beliefs), but these people are still not hurting anyone else

[FatAndFaithless]

Sin taxes. There's a bunch of examples for you right there. Very healthy business for my government. If you want to take a look at those we can do that, or I can offer something else up - it's your call.

Sin taxes? What do you mean by sin taxes? Taxes on tobacco, alcohol and pollutant products? At least in Fiscal/Tax Law we use the 'Sin taxes' terminology for these kind of taxes, but they have several justifications behind them. Do you have more relevant examples behind taxes?

I too think deism is still wishful thinking, the same goes for agnostic theism (without religious beliefs), but these people are still not hurting anyone else

How exactly can someone be a theist without religious beliefs?

[Dystopia]

Sin taxes? What do you mean by sin taxes? Taxes on tobacco, alcohol and pollutant products? At least in Fiscal/Tax Law we use the 'Sin taxes' terminology for these kind of taxes, but they have several justifications behind them. Do you have more relevant examples behind taxes?

I too think deism is still wishful thinking, the same goes for agnostic theism (without religious beliefs), but these people are still not hurting anyone else

How exactly can someone be a theist without religious beliefs?

Well you can believe that a god exists and not follow any religion, a lot of young people have quit the superstition of religion but still have some kind of belief. As far as I know, there is nothing stopping you, you can believe in a higher force and not follow any specific religion, no dogmas, it sounds better than religion anyway.