Once Again.... If You Don't Like France...

[Jacob(smooth)]

That's true. But I would offer that if what troubles us is the element of coercion or compulsion then the way to approach it is to deal with element of coercion or compulsion.

The issue for me is freedom. By compelling them to NOT do something it seems to me we are impinging their freedom as much as people who would force them. That's not empowerment. That's just expecting people to do what we want instead of what some other group wants.

I am having a difficult time imagining a practical way of dealing with the coercive side of the issue. I also don't like the inherent limitation of liberty for some, but that's why the situation presents a dilemma; there are no ideal solutions. The freedom loving side of me hates admitting that I can accept limiting certain freedoms if it also means that to some extent we can mitigate the oppression of others.

Without more considered thought on the matter I can summarize my position by stating I prioritize higher someone's right to not wear identity concealing clothes before considering someone's right to wear it because we know the coercion exists. If the coercion did not exist I would explicitly agree with your conclusion regarding a law that would then only serve to limit a choice.

I can appreciate the argument. Slippery slop though. People are coerced to do all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons. Sex springs to mind. Banning the people who do it voluntarily to prevent the people who don't seems a very crude way of doing it. And bear in mind that these are adults we're talking about.

My mind returns to that saying about those who would surrender a little liberty for a little security. There are ALWAYS good reasons for impinging personal and religious freedoms. As a rule, history remembers these reasons without much sympathy.

Good grief! IF I was to land in Qatar or any other "muslim" dominated country where it is law for me to cover my face I would do so.

Well you'd have to wouldn't you. And that would be a bad thing! That culture, where government dictates what you may wear based on your gender, religion or status is not one we should be seeking to emulate IMO!

[KichigaiNeko]

You numb nut! Jacob!

They are the "rules" of that country. Women are oppressed. You are females and want to come here...then these are our rules.

Why should France be any different?

[Jacob(smooth)]

Because the rules of the country should be that you are free to wear what you want to wear, not merely a different dress code!

[DeistPaladin]

Then I was called racist

It bears repeating:

Islam...
Is...
Not...
A...
Race.

---

Because they breed like rabbits, to me it's an undeniable certainty that they will have the numbers one day to vote in a Muslim prime minister.

Atheists can counter this trend by growing our numbers via assimilation.

You breed 'em. We'll de-creed 'em.

OK, de-creed isn't a word but it fits.

[Cato]

Because the rules of the country should be that you are free to wear what you want to wear, not merely a different dress code!

Would you extend this to wearing nothing at all?

[vorlon13]

Sacre bleu !!!

[Losty]

Every place has a dress code. You can't go naked. You cannot expose certain parts of your body. I hate when people wear those things. It not because I think all Muslims are scary or terrorists or something stupid like that. It's because I don't trust anyone who is hiding their face. It makes me feel unsafe. I would feel just as unsafe if it were a ski mask I think in general people should not be allowed to keep their face hidden in public for safety reasons.

[Mr Greene]

Certainly there are laws against public nudity in the UK and US, though I don't think that is the case in France or Germany.
As for "being sent back to their own country" most of them are from here in the first place now. The assumption that the majority of them were born abroad has been essentially false for at least 30 years.
Looking at the muslim countries the most disturbing trend I see is the acid attacks on European females if they don't conform to particular dress codes.

[Dystopia]

go back to your desert shithole and wear whatever the fuck you want.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28106900

The European Court of Human Rights has upheld a ban by France on wearing the Muslim full-face veil - the niqab.

I've been called stupid, bigoted and racist for supporting this ban on the internet, and I'm not even french. I support this not because I want to ban Islam, but by a matter of identity and national security, this is pretty simple, between religious freedom and legality/security/public order the later principles win without a margin of doubt. If you don't like it, you can leave france. It's fine to emigrate, but don't impose your views/culture on other societies with the excuse of multiculturalism bullshit.

[ManMachine]

It's probably some hideous white woman with the face of a mule who's really only pissed because France took away her only viable excuse to hide her ugly mug.

Possibly.

But I applaud the way France went about this. Many calls for similar laws specifically target Muslim garb. Making it all face hiding garments is a great way to get around the whole religious bullshit persecution claims.

The ECHR found there was "continuing interference" with the applicants rights under Article 8 and 9, but that the ban was proportionately justifiable under the greater requirement for 'respect for human dignity and respect for the minimum requirements of life in society', or 'living together' if you like.

The ECHR also noted that the campaign leading up to the introduction of the law had been marked by 'certain Islamophobic remarks'.

It also noted that on the question of France's margin of appreciation in this matter, it was of some significance that there was no common ground between EC member states as to the wearing of a full face veil in public places.

Islamophobic remarks, 'continuing interference' and EC apathy sounds more like a comedy of errors than a well organised campaign worthy of applause.

MM