The Intersection of Faith and Doubt: finding common ground.

[Ravenshire]

GalacticBusDriver, I didn’t come here to debate. As you may gather, I think debates can be rather pointless. I’ve actually been in one.

… it was awful.

Meh... All conversation in life is debate to one degree or another. When I said " if you offer lively debate" I certainly didn't mean it in the sense of a formal debate. I'm not much interested in those either, but I do love to argue a point.

But an odd thing seems to happen when the matter of religion pops up; they use words like, “superstitious or absurd.” I remain stony-faced and the conversation proceeds as normal. So, generally I expect a bit of criticism.

Try to remember that we may attack your beliefs, but we're not likely to attack you without provocation. Of course, some are more easily provoked than others. We believe that belief in the untestable and unverifiable is superstitious, absurd, loony, nutty, insane, pointless, stupid, harmful, dangerous and/or bat-shit crazy. That goes for far more than just god(s). Just keep in mind that it's not personal.

[downbeatplumb]

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I’ll state out right that I am a Christian. Call me what you will, “ignorant, stupid, sheltered,” whatever floats your goat (Perhaps that can be my title instead of Christard?). Nonetheless I’d be very interested in interacting with this community. To be honest I nearly gave up my faith at least twice, although I’m not sure what kept me from it (a story for another time, I suppose).


The major factor for joining a community like this where I’m unwanted is this statement from John Locke, “For till it be resolved how far we are to be guided by reason, and how far by faith, we shall in vain dispute, and endeavor to convince one another in matters of religion.” And who on the basis of experience disagree with this statement?

Anyone who has watched a debate on theism and atheism (or any topic for that matter) may leave with a sense of unease… or at least in need of a hefty dose Alka-Seltzer. There’s often contact with one’s arguments during rebuttals but the opponents seem strangely un-phased by the other. No deep reflection has taken place; no real engagement has occurred. Much of what I see are people talking at each other with a considerable degree of emotional distance from one another.


Although you and I differ markedly in what we believe about reality we nonetheless have some things in common: fear, loss, love. So I’m curious, is there a rich, resonant question that fosters intellectual agreement?

Put more simply what do you and I agree on; do we share some common ground?


I don’t expect to find this “rich, resonant” question right away; part of the fun with questions like these are in the discussion. But, let’s not entertain the possibility that is no common ground unless it comes to that point, shall we?

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You seem, on my reading of your opening post, to be a reasonable fellow so would probably agree on most things.

Religious beliefs are probably the least important things in peoples lives up until the time they start to direct them generally or impact on others.

Politics is more important as it has an actual impact and in america, the middle east and other religiously backwards countries that's where it gets messy.

[XK9_Knight]

Actually what I said there, I was referring to things that are not superficial.

Yes, I didn’t wish to imply you were; I think you hit the nail on the head with that comment (or at least a nail?). I think what you said carried a lot of weight; we have the same values in common and I’m pleased with that. But like you said, our reasons for holding to them are mutually exclusive. Although, I wouldn’t stop with that, this sort of discussion has to be worked through thoroughly before it yields more than just bouncing ideas off one another. But I’m looking forward to delving deep as time goes on.

I think American football is boring and confusing and I actually don't really care for sports much at all. Chocolate is always nice but it's messy and hard to clean up afterwards so I prefer to leave it out.

I'm joking. ;P

Try to remember that we may attack your beliefs, but we're not likely to attack you without provocation.

Oh, is that how it is, huh!?


All kidding aside, I’ll usually ask before I say something tendentious.

Religious beliefs are probably the least important things in peoples lives up until the time they start to direct them generally or impact on others.

Politics is more important as it has an actual impact and in America, the Middle East and other religiously backwards countries that's where it gets messy.

I suppose you could take a pragmatic approach to politics, but the most the government can do is regulate your actions. Religious or not, your world view plays a major role in your private life, no?

I’m very interested in politics, but frankly I’m not ready to open that can of worms just yet (I don’t have the stomach for it).

[Ravenshire]

Chocolate is always nice but it's messy and hard to clean up afterwards so I prefer to leave it out.

Oh, but there are so many fun things you can do with chocolate!

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So, XK9_Knight. Since you're a football fan I have to ask.

Broncos or some lesser team?!?

Glad to see you have a sense of humor. That can be handy around here!

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Prolly the only thing I can think of that even approaches your request for 'a deep resonant question' regarding the intersection of faith and non-faith is this:

'What is your ultimate justification for treating other people the way you do?'

I'm a bit closed-minded regarding faith, but I suspect that all honest answers to this question will indicated that there IS no real 'intersection' between faith and non-faith (sorry to edited you, but the phrase 'between faith and doubt' comes off as a bit prejudicial).

Anyroad, welcome to the Fora.

Boru

[Losty]

Chocolate is always nice but it's messy and hard to clean up afterwards so I prefer to leave it out.

Oh, but there are so many fun things you can do with chocolate!

I thought you might catch that

[Ravenshire]

I thought you might catch that

What with where my mind's been lately? I couldn't have missed it!

[XK9_Knight]

'What is your ultimate justification for treating other people the way you do?'

I'm a bit closed-minded regarding faith, but I suspect that all honest answers to this question will indicated that there is no real 'intersection' between faith and non-faith (sorry to edited you, but the phrase 'between faith and doubt' comes off as a bit prejudicial).

I think that’s an interesting choice of words; they have an edge to them. Does someone need to ‘justify’ being charitable or altruistic? I don’t think so, and I would consider myself as being those things (not that I wish to sound pompous). Correct me if I’m mistaken, but I think I may have come across as, “just another pretentious Christian,” no? I recognize I’m going against the grain joining a forum like this but my goal is to come along side fellows like yourself; thus the intersection of ‘faith and doubt.’

It’s good that you recognize how you can be “closed-minded” at times (we all can). What’s interesting is not what a man denies but what he accepts, and closing a door in one area means he’s open to another, and I want to find how to communicate with him through that opening. So far from being prejudicial, I’d like to build some “good faith.”

So, XK9_Knight. Since you're a football fan I have to ask.

Broncos or some lesser team?!?

… Broncos, BRAAAAWNCOOOS!?

PACKERS!

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[ignoramus]

Fraud met Einstein one afternoon (I have his biography).
Freud said "We got on famously!
I knew nothing about physics and he knew nothing about psychology."

Right now my head is void of any religious beliefs.
If your head isn't, then your greatest achievement to me is to prove that thoughts of god aren't exclusively in your head or everyone else's.

Catch!

[KichigaiNeko]