God's self esteem and the human free will : NO FORCED CONVERSION WITH THE SWORD

[Mister Agenda]

How I see it is that, Yahweh created hell so those who caused pain in this life suffer the pain they caused to others. Causing pain and corruption to others is what makes the lord angry ; it's not a need he wants to satisfy.

Shouldn't the punishment be proportionate to the crime? The hell described by Muslims seems excessive for any finite crime, and humans are only capable of committing finite crimes.

Sometimes people don't see how they hurt others by things they think "normal", while in reality, they caused unimaginable pain to others.

Even if a human inflicts 'unimaginable' pain, it only lasts so long. Inflicting it back ten times over is excessive, let alone a million times over, let alone for eternity.

Just like that guy whom god blessed with a beautiful loving mate, yet he still insist on cheating on her or go watch porn behind her back. Vise versa to the naughty lady. Sometimes it gives people depression that leads to suicide. God in this case gets angry because he knows the pain that person A caused to his mate, for not following the rules of god by staying away from lust & sexual thinking.

We don't think appropriate punishment for 'that guy' is excruciating torture for years on end, let alone centuries. Getting angry is understandable for humans who have good reasons for not being able to anticipate how someone will behave, and thus be surprised and hurt by it, but there is a point where anger is satisfied and the only reason to continue to punish is a sadistic desire to keep on hurting someone.

Homosexuality was given here as an example of a taboo that was broken; just like stating religion as a new taboo in many countries with large atheist population.

Can you name a non-communist country where religion is taboo?

---

The problem with hell is that it isn't for bad people. It's for people who displease Yahweh. While these two groups may overlap, they aren't the same. Jeffrey Dahmer is supposedly in heaven, while Anne Frank isn't. The only case I could make for Hitler being in hell is that he decided to commit suicide. Otherwise he was a catholic, and presumably said the right things to the right god.

I believe following the laws of this god has caused more harm than good.

I may be mistaken, but he may have had Eva Braun shoot him so it wouldn't be suicide and he could die a Catholic in good standing.

---

So that they live and enjoy life without causing misery and armageddon to others. And this cannot be achieved without worshiping god.

Countries with high levels of organic athism are among the happiest and most equitable in the world. Contrast with countries under Islamic theocracies. QED.

God created us to worship him.

Narcissism is not more attractive in God than in people.

Worshipping god doesn't include bringing him food.

Not these days, anyway.

It includes treating others well, building the universe, enjoying his blessings.

If that's what worshiping God is, you don't even need to believe he's real to worship him.

Do you get the relation ? worshiping god = living & enjoying life with peace, honesty & charity. That's how muslims worship god.

If only that were true of more of them.

I saw a lot of people in my life who thought free will includes doing what they want.

Probably because that's pretty much the definition.

Eventually they turned prisoners to drinking, drugs and other terrible stuff.

Hm. Neither mysel nor my many friends who don't believe in God are prisoners to drinking, drugs, or other terrible stuff. For the most part we are happy and consider ourselves fortunate. Maybe the common denominator in the experience of the people in your life who actually understand what the term 'free will' means, is that they believed, but didn't choose to live their beliefs. I have no trouble living my belief that people should be kind and generous.

So, the real free will lies in constraining it with a godly code of ethics -i.e Quran-, or you will be the prisoner of something else..
Abusing the natural free will by using it openly will lead you to lose it.

Are you familiar with the concept of 'newspeak' from George Orwell's 1984? It's the practice of changing language for propaganda purposes. You seem to be going with 'slavery is freedom'.

Muslims are humans & believe it or not : many don't even believe in these concepts.

Muslims are diverse, for sure.

Notice that if you brought the Quran as a ruling medium in the Middle East, everybody will fight you, including "ISIS and Al Qaeda".

They wouldn't all agree with your interpretation of the Quran, certainly.

Many Muslims don't follow the direct word of god -Quran-, believe it or not the majority think that the Quran alone is not valid ; it must be accompanied with the "Hadith".

Islam would benefit from more 'Quran-only' Muslims.

and that is sir the source of Muslim violence. Some Hadiths are correct and match the Quran, but many many many other are forged and defy it, literally defy it, and has tons of violence that the Quran despises.

It's not just the Hadith. Most of the areas where Muslims are a majority are impoverished (and have always been so), and there's a ton of history and politics and tribalism involved as well. Jettisoning the Hadith would be an improvement, but many of the underlying causes of violence would remain.

But no, I defy the vatican in that.. even if you did good without a believe in god, you're still a person who isn't on the right track

Isn't a Muslim defying the Vatican like a Texan defying the Canadians? You are free to disagree with the Vatican, as am I , but it doesn't really involve defiance when its edicts don't apply to us in the first place, I would think.

And why should we care if you think we are on the right track? You might try convincing us you have a clue as to what you're talking about before dispensing your opinions on how we're doing track-wise as though they carry any weight.

[WinterHold]

Mister Agenda

Shouldn't the punishment be proportionate to the crime? The hell described by Muslims seems excessive for any finite crime, and humans are only capable of committing finite crimes.
Even if a human inflicts 'unimaginable' pain, it only lasts so long. Inflicting it back ten times over is excessive, let alone a million times over, let alone for eternity.

eternity is not necessarily a feature of hell in Islam. Many scholars had arguments about it ; because of these two verses :

( 106 ) As for those who were [destined to be] wretched, they will be in the Fire. For them therein is [violent] exhaling and inhaling.
( 107 ) [They will be] abiding therein as long as the heavens and the earth endure, except what your Lord should will. Indeed, your Lord is an effecter of what He intends. page 233, Quran.

Unlike describing heaven as eternal :

( 108 ) And as for those who were [destined to be] prosperous, they will be in Paradise, abiding therein as long as the heavens and the earth endure, except what your Lord should will - a bestowal uninterrupted. page 233, Quran.

a bestowal uninterrupted simply means "Eternal".
That was not given as a feature of hell.

So don't jump to conclusions please before reading the message of god probably.

After finishing that, let's come to the concept of punishment based on the crime.

the crimes you speak about are finite because life here and now is finite. If it's not, these crimes will be "INFINITE". and will have Eternal effect.

For example, take function x which is recursive yet have no base case. It will carry on its function infinitely.

Add a base case "z" ; the function would stop at condition z.

Let function x be "effect of murder". let base case z be "death of people affected by the crime".
Remove death ? the function will keep going ; the effect will be present ; INFINITELY. That's pure math & Computer Science..

We don't think appropriate punishment for 'that guy' is excruciating torture for years on end, let alone centuries. Getting angry is understandable for humans who have good reasons for not being able to anticipate how someone will behave, and thus be surprised and hurt by it, but there is a point where anger is satisfied and the only reason to continue to punish is a sadistic desire to keep on hurting someone.

Revise recursive functions example again.. if my life goes forever, you hurting me and causing me pain will also go forever.
Let alone hell not assured as being eternal in Islam.

Can you name a non-communist country where religion is taboo?

Pretty much all of Northern Europe ?

Countries with high levels of organic athism are among the happiest and most equitable in the world. Contrast with countries under Islamic theocracies. QED.

Statistics please ?

Narcissism is not more attractive in God than in people.

Narcissism can only be applied on humans..god is not even a creation or a human-like.

Not these days, anyway.

( 37 ) Their meat will not reach Allah, nor will their blood, but what reaches Him is piety from you. Thus have We subjected them to you that you may glorify Allah for that [to] which He has guided you; and give good tidings to the doers of good. Page 336, Quran.

If that's what worshiping God is, you don't even need to believe he's real to worship him.

Without believe you'll forget and you won't take these things seriously, and you'll start defying all these good things without even knowing it.

If only that were true of more of them.

There are many like that.. you just didn't take enough time to meet them.

Probably because that's pretty much the definition.

Which is totally wrong and leads them to lose that will and become "real slaves" to other stuff like lusts .

Hm. Neither mysel nor my many friends who don't believe in God are prisoners to drinking, drugs, or other terrible stuff. For the most part we are happy and consider ourselves fortunate. Maybe the common denominator in the experience of the people in your life who actually understand what the term 'free will' means, is that they believed, but didn't choose to live their beliefs. I have no trouble living my belief that people should be kind and generous.

and that is good for you.
It's not a de-facto ; others fell victims to depression and to these other stuff..

Feeling fortunate & thankful are also good stuff.
I never said non muslims don't do good.

I only said this common believe of free will without constraints that god had put leads to disasters later. The changing of morals & values over history is a straightforward example of what I mean.

Are you familiar with the concept of 'newspeak' from George Orwell's 1984? It's the practice of changing language for propaganda purposes. You seem to be going with 'slavery is freedom'.

I read about it just now & smelled "V for Vendetta" theme. Or perhaps Christian Bale's "Equilibrium" ? Dead sure the movies were based on this novel.

Anyhow, slavery to an extremist party or faction is something totally different than slavery to god in Islam. and yet ; allow me to rephrase it to be "Slavery to God is freedom", yes that's what I believe in.

Slavery to god in Quranic context is something..
Slavery to people is something else.

One might start to wonder : why do you always try to picture god as a mad human ? get over it. Any person read the Quran probably will also admit the same thing.

They wouldn't all agree with your interpretation of the Quran, certainly.

Not mine TBH. Even though I use my own head most of the time, many others reached the same conclusions. From the dawn of Islamic history.

Modern scholars who repeat the same stuff are also many. But sadly, western media loves & adores to show the extremists only instead of these guys.

I wonder why.

Islam would benefit from more 'Quran-only' Muslims.

Islam doesn't need me or Quran-only Muslims.
God doesn't need us to benefit his religion. The Quran is there, will always be there, waiting for people to read it.

We benefit from Islam, the whole disaster is when people think they can benefit god or his religion.. then extremism is born & corruption extends to cover up the whole thing.

It's not just the Hadith. Most of the areas where Muslims are a majority are impoverished (and have always been so), and there's a ton of history and politics and tribalism involved as well. Jettisoning the Hadith would be an improvement, but many of the underlying causes of violence would remain.

It's full of natural recourses but dictatorship along with foreign intervention did manage to keep the area destroyed.
A simple comparison between the Ottomans & medieval Europe is enough.

but yes i agree with you. it's full of destructive norms & tribalism, despite the constant calls in the Quran to ignore these things & concentrate on the fact that we are all humans.

Like when many Muslims try to give Arabs credibility over other races because Mohammed peace be upon him was an Arab..

Believe it or not some Hadiths make sense and match the Quranic meaning. so not all of it is corrupted ; yet many many are.

Isn't a Muslim defying the Vatican like a Texan defying the Canadians? You are free to disagree with the Vatican, as am I , but it doesn't really involve defiance when its edicts don't apply to us in the first place, I would think.

And why should we care if you think we are on the right track? You might try convincing us you have a clue as to what you're talking about before dispensing your opinions on how we're doing track-wise as though they carry any weight.

Elaborate more on the first point ; please.

You should care because your free will believe led you to create certain weapons which are enough to burn earth twice i.e Atomic bombs without any consideration to human life.

You should care because obviously you led the world into the eve of a disaster.. though as my god -and your god- put it in the Quran :

( 96 ) Indeed, those upon whom the word of your Lord has come into effect will not believe,
( 97 ) Even if every sign should come to them, until they see the painful punishment. Page 219, Quran.

Until you see the holocaust that your "free will" have caused, you will mock me and make fun of me & would never believe.

Noticing that the Quran will forbid you from even thinking about creating such a weapon -even for defensive reasons- and put it proudly in your arsenal..

[Thumpalumpacus]

So, that is what it's all about. Believe or not, god is not in need for your faith.

Phew, I had thought my atheism caused him to commit suicide or something, given his noticeable absence.

Glad I don't have that guilt to carry about any more.

[*Deidre*]

Let's pretend God for sure exists. If 'he' had strong self esteem, why would he need mere mortals to constantly 'defend' him?

If a god exists, and he's anywhere NEAR the versions I've read about in the Abrahamic faiths - he is far from confident! lol

[Chad32]

I find it hard that a guy that demands worship, and is so vindictive against those who don't, doesn't need our worship in some way. Of course the idea that he depends on us in any way diminishes him as all powerful and such, and we're supposed to be worthless without him, and can't be allowed to have something that he can't without us.

It's hard to portray a "take it or leave it" attitude with this guy.

[Thumpalumpacus]

And it cannot be ascribed to "testing" us, for an omniscient being would already know the answer.

[*Deidre*]

I find it hard that a guy that demands worship, and is so vindictive against those who don't, doesn't need our worship in some way. Of course the idea that he depends on us in any way diminishes him as all powerful and such, and we're supposed to be worthless without him, and can't be allowed to have something that he can't without us.

It's hard to portray a "take it or leave it" attitude with this guy.

God has the 'traits' of man. Hmmm....

Man made God in HIS image. That's more like it.

[Ravenshire]

It's not a need TBH, it is for the sake of mankind itself. In concept ; defying god corrupts the universe ; resulting so many miseries to creations. That's why Allah gets angry when people defy his laws.

How I see it is that, Yahweh created hell so those who caused pain in this life suffer the pain they caused to others. Causing pain and corruption to others is what makes the lord angry ; it's not a need he wants to satisfy.

Sometimes people don't see how they hurt others by things they think "normal", while in reality, they caused unimaginable pain to others.

Just like that guy whom god blessed with a beautiful loving mate, yet he still insist on cheating on her or go watch porn behind her back. Vise versa to the naughty lady. Sometimes it gives people depression that leads to suicide. God in this case gets angry because he knows the pain that person A caused to his mate, for not following the rules of god by staying away from lust & sexual thinking.

Homosexuality was given here as an example of a taboo that was broken; just like stating religion as a new taboo in many countries with large atheist population.

Why do I click on these threads without my hip-waders?!?

[paulpablo]

In my opinion god shows little self esteem. The evidence for this is in the threats he makes when trying to persuade people to believe in the quran.

Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.

Notice god isn't saying

Watch out if you don't believe satan roasts you, or you fall down into a pit of fire.

He's saying he will personally push you down and drive you into those flames then personally replace your flesh when it's roasted through so you can feel even more pain then repeat the process.

It's sort of like me kicking down your door, tying you up, heating up an iron rod in some flames and threatening to fuck you up with it until you put the funds from your bank account into my bank account, then after you give me your funds you claim you did it of your own free will.

Bare in mind this isn't a sin that harms people, many charitable atheists, Christians, Buddhists and so on who have read the quran and not believed in it will now be burned repeatedly by god himself for not believing in the verses of this book.

Additionally you wrote....

Narcissism can only be applied on humans..god is not even a creation or a human-like.

I don't believe in God but weren't you the one who was saying God shows his self esteem? So why can he have self esteem but not narcissism? I think the whole idea of god is nonsense personally but if you're going to say this imaginary character has self esteem why not narcissism?

[Angrboda]

After finishing that, let's come to the concept of punishment based on the crime.
the crimes you speak about are finite because life here and now is finite. If it's not, these crimes will be "INFINITE". and will have Eternal effect.
. . . .
Remove death ? the function will keep going ; the effect will be present ; INFINITELY. That's pure math & Computer Science..

Minds, hearts and bodies heal. The wound does not last forever.

Countries with high levels of organic athism are among the happiest and most equitable in the world. Contrast with countries under Islamic theocracies. QED.

Statistics please ?

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5256...theism.pdf