God's self esteem and the human free will : NO FORCED CONVERSION WITH THE SWORD

[WinterHold]

Phew, I had thought my atheism caused him to commit suicide or something, given his noticeable absence.
Glad I don't have that guilt to carry about any more.

Well the story of the Pharaoh & Moses from the Quran might provide you with more details on your case .. I know you don't believe in either of them but hey the wisdom of the story is what we all seek, eh ?

( 88 ) And Moses said, "Our Lord, indeed You have given Pharaoh and his establishment splendor and wealth in the worldly life, our Lord, that they may lead [men] astray from Your way. Our Lord, obliterate their wealth and harden their hearts so that they will not believe until they see the painful punishment." Page 218, Quran.

Not so agressive from moses to demand god to punish them -given that the Pharaoh enslaved the Israelis ; murdering all their male children, heck Moses only survived because god wanted him to..-. Let alone the crucifixion the Pharaoh practiced on the monks who believed in moses.

Back to your point.
If you chose not to believe, don't expect heavens to rain thunder on your head. Instead, god might actually spoil you with all kinds of blessing, until you really really believe he doesn't exist. Until your heart becomes as hard as stone.

Everyday god sends us messages & signs ; his sun shines, his moon rise, the stars form that warming sensation of a shiny night sky, the breeze of spring hits your skin ; feels so wonderful.. yet your heart is as hard as stone you'll never acknowledge these signs & you'll refuse them.

Then you turn into one of them zombies who never believe until they see the harsh punishment of god. Like the pharaoh when he got drowned along with his army ; he only believed when he was on the eve of death.

When death comes, and you can see the grim reaper roaming around, your back is old and cracked, your bones are weak & fragile, when your family starts to give that sad ghostly look stating "he's a goner"..
Then you'll know how severe that punishment was.

Deidre32

He doesn't.

( 133 ) And your Lord is the Free of need, the possessor of mercy. If He wills, he can do away with you and give succession after you to whomever He wills, just as He produced you from the descendants of another people. Page 145, Quran.

Though, the god orders Muslims to defend "their right to worship god", which is a total different thing !

Mohammed peace be upon him was one example. When the call for Jihad against Quraish & the heathen tribes in mecca, it was for two simple goals -as far as I know- : for muslims to regain the land they were casted out from, and for Muslims to practice their religion without being killed & tortured by these heathen tribes.

But about defending the "attacks" on the religion itself ; read about the mockery against prophets & their messages, the prophets NEVER raised the sword to protect the message..yet they were only demanded to read the message to as much people as possible.

They raised swords to protect their right in believing in it without getting killed or casted out of their land because of it.

Chad32

The problem is : you keep thinking of god as "that guy lives upstairs"..I blame ancient greeks & christians for injecting such concepts into religion as a whole.

He demands you to worship him because worshiping him is life itself. Without it you're dead ; you're not even alive. Without it you'll burn the universe ; I already gave "mister agenda" an example of that i.e atomic weapons.

you see, it's that simple : worship him so you don't cause suffering to your human kins, and to other creations living around.

Satan stopped worshiping god when allowed himself to be offended by the creation of humans ; when he stopped worshiping god & following his command, he practiced the FIRST CASE OF RACISM EVER.

Read this passage from the Quran ; I think you never saw it before & I also think it would make the point I'm trying to make more clear

God didn't throw those who don't believe in him in hell because he's a mad dictator human like figure.
He puts them there because eventually ; they will turn satan like & burn others with hatred, envy & racism.

if god is so needy of worship..why didn't he throw satan in hell once he repelled ? ask yourself that.

( 12 ) [Allah] said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" [Satan] said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay."
( 13 ) [Allah] said, "Descend from Paradise, for it is not for you to be arrogant therein. So get out; indeed, you are of the debased.
( 14 ) [Satan] said, "Reprieve me until the Day they are resurrected."
( 15 ) [Allah] said, "Indeed, you are of those reprieved."
( 16 ) [Satan] said, "Because You have put me in error, I will surely sit in wait for them on Your straight path.
( 17 ) Then I will come to them from before them and from behind them and on their right and on their left, and You will not find most of them grateful [to You]."
( 18 ) [Allah] said, "Get out of Paradise, reproached and expelled. Whoever follows you among them - I will surely fill Hell with you, all together."
Page 152, Quran.

Also, worshiping god breaks down your arrogance to peaces. Which mean you'll be humble even towards animals ^_^

Thumpalumpacus

The answer that we chose. Wouldn't be fair to punish us without letting us picking our own road, right ?
God knows an answer that we chose. He didn't force it on us you see.

Deidre32

That's a christian believe ; mainly.
Quran has it like :

( 11 ) [He is] Creator of the heavens and the earth. He has made for you from yourselves, mates, and among the cattle, mates; He multiplies you thereby. There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing. Page 484, Quran.

paulpablo

In my opinion god shows little self esteem. The evidence for this is in the threats he makes when trying to persuade people to believe in the quran.

He isn't persuading TBH ; he's just showing us the signs he created. About the threats, the passage I posted to Chad32 has the reason behind the threat.

He's saying he will personally push you down and drive you into those flames then personally replace your flesh when it's roasted through so you can feel even more pain then repeat the process.

It's sort of like me kicking down your door, tying you up, heating up an iron rod in some flames and threatening to fuck you up with it until you put the funds from your bank account into my bank account, then after you give me your funds you claim you did it of your own free will.

Bare in mind this isn't a sin that harms people, many charitable atheists, Christians, Buddhists and so on who have read the quran and not believed in it will now be burned repeatedly by god himself for not believing in the verses of this book.

But you ignored this :

( 16 ) But when He tries him and restricts his provision, he says, "My Lord has humiliated me."
( 17 ) No! But you do not honor the orphan
( 18 ) And you do not encourage one another to feed the poor.
( 19 ) And you consume inheritance, devouring [it] altogether,
( 20 ) And you love wealth with immense love. Page 593, Quran.

Accompanied with the original satanic road which pours racism & hatred.

Speaking of charitable people -even if atheists-, god will repay them for every good act they did. Yet, as the main point of my topic stated : not believing makes you on the satanic side still.
Maybe god will have mercy on them in the after life ? maybe in this life ?
One thing I know for certain : god will repay them for all good they did.

No human can say he knows who's in hell & who ain't. That's god business.

I don't believe in God but weren't you the one who was saying God shows his self esteem? So why can he have self esteem but not narcissism? I think the whole idea of god is nonsense personally but if you're going to say this imaginary character has self esteem why not narcissism?

So simple. Self esteem is a total different concept than narcism, self esteem means knowing your abilities and acknowledging them, while narcism is pure arrogance which is in many cases based on false claims of self superiority -so human-. Not something to apply on a god ; especially since it's a production of the study of human psychology.

Self esteem is not a human-specific disorder that exists within human brain.

rasetsu

Not always. That's why suicide exists.
about the link, I'll make sure to read it and reply again with my opinion.

[JesusHChrist]

Holy crap.

And I mean that literally.

[Welsh cake]

One thing that made me believe in Islam is the self esteem God has.

God created us to worship him.

Apologies in advance, but, you're full of convoluted dogmatic shit, you know that?

You assert god is "the" pillar of self-sufficiency. Perfection. Needs or wants nothing from us, then follow up that claim, with the big ol' stinky turd assertion that "god requires worship".

No. No one requires worship or devotion.

You know that sky tyrant needs angels constantly singing his praises in heaven right? If that isn't insecurity and an inferiority-superiority-complex, then I don't know what is.

How I see it is that, Yahweh created hell so those who caused pain in this life suffer the pain they caused to others. Causing pain and corruption to others is what makes the lord angry ; it's not a need he wants to satisfy.

Hey, where you got people, you got problems. Evil is a naturalistic consequence. Something an all-powerful deity who created reality should be able to appreciate and not get angry over. Its unavoidable.

And if he is still angry, its because all blame and credit for creating a reality where evil is possible comes back to him.

[pocaracas]

Deidre32

He doesn't.

( 133 ) And your Lord is the Free of need, the possessor of mercy. If He wills, he can do away with you and give succession after you to whomever He wills, just as He produced you from the descendants of another people. Page 145, Quran.

Though, the god orders Muslims to defend "their right to worship god", which is a total different thing !

This bit here got me thinking...



Why is it that believers say stuff like that? "god orders muslims to..." "god commands christians to..." "god tells jews to..." ??

Wouldn't you think that, if there was a real god, one that wanted people to believe that it is real and exists, it wouldn't send a select few "prophets", knowing full well that people can and will mistrust the words of these few, knowing full well that these few can be considered mentally unstable, but rather should bring itself to be known by everyone, equally... "to know", defined as "justified true belief".
If there was a god that made itself known to everyone, then everyone would believe it exists... the choice to worship it or not would then be in the realm of free-will.

Instead, we get "god" (some god...) ordering the people in some constrained geographical localization. The other geographical locations of the planet are left to their own devices, huh? That's where (other) god(s) bring forth his(their) orders for other people in those places... and we get the Egyptians, Greek, Romans, Norse, Druids, Babylonians, Hindus, Shamans, Incas, Aztecs, Native Americans (so-called indians in the north - it seems the indigenous peoples of the Amazon were a bit godless), Buddhists, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...

So... either the great majority of the people of earth got the wrong message (undermining any credibility of any "word of god"), or there are a lot of cons around... all of them. Either we have an incompetent god, or none at all. Which is it?

[Ryantology]

I can't help but think that a thread like this would be a hell of a lot more useful on a Muslim forum.

[paulpablo]

But you ignored this :

( 16 ) But when He tries him and restricts his provision, he says, "My Lord has humiliated me."
( 17 ) No! But you do not honor the orphan
( 18 ) And you do not encourage one another to feed the poor.
( 19 ) And you consume inheritance, devouring [it] altogether,
( 20 ) And you love wealth with immense love. Page 593, Quran.

Accompanied with the original satanic road which pours racism & hatred.

Speaking of charitable people -even if atheists-, god will repay them for every good act they did. Yet, as the main point of my topic stated : not believing makes you on the satanic side still.
Maybe god will have mercy on them in the after life ? maybe in this life ?
One thing I know for certain : god will repay them for all good they did.

No human can say he knows who's in hell & who ain't. That's god business.

God will reward even atheists for their good deeds?

it's written down in the quran that the punishment for not believing the verses of the quran is god roasting that person til the flesh burns away then recreating their flesh for them to feel the pain over again.

it doesn't say in the quran it might happen, or god might have mercy, it says god will drive them into the flames and roast them.
So how is he going to have mercy on them or repay them for the good they did while at the same time as roasting them repeatedly?

I didn't ignore the verses you posted they just bare no relevance on anything I posted at all, if they do you, still haven't pointed out why they do.

---

So simple. Self esteem is a total different concept than narcism, self esteem means knowing your abilities and acknowledging them, while narcism is pure arrogance which is in many cases based on false claims of self superiority -so human-. Not something to apply on a god ; especially since it's a production of the study of human psychology.

Self esteem is not a human-specific disorder that exists within human brain.

Self esteem is a concept used in the study of human psychology also and yet you're applying that to a god.

The rest of what you wrote simply can't be proven, you don't know that god can't have a false sense of superiority , someone who creates people and then tells them their lives must be dedicated to praising him, then writes a book detailing how amazing he is, then tells people if they don't believe the book he will burn them repeatedly seems to be a little arrogant to me, just a little.

[The Grand Nudger]

You're both right, from the muslim perspective. While the book does say all that nasty shit, it also says that no man has a claim to that knowledge. I know...I know...they didn't think it through. Do they ever?

[Mystic]

But you ignored this :

( 16 ) But when He tries him and restricts his provision, he says, "My Lord has humiliated me."
( 17 ) No! But you do not honor the orphan
( 18 ) And you do not encourage one another to feed the poor.
( 19 ) And you consume inheritance, devouring [it] altogether,
( 20 ) And you love wealth with immense love. Page 593, Quran.

Accompanied with the original satanic road which pours racism & hatred.

Speaking of charitable people -even if atheists-, god will repay them for every good act they did. Yet, as the main point of my topic stated : not believing makes you on the satanic side still.
Maybe god will have mercy on them in the after life ? maybe in this life ?
One thing I know for certain : god will repay them for all good they did.

No human can say he knows who's in hell & who ain't. That's god business.

God will reward even atheists for their good deeds?

it's written down in the quran that the punishment for not believing the verses of the quran is god roasting that person til the flesh burns away then recreating their flesh for them to feel the pain over again.

it doesn't say in the quran it might happen, or god might have mercy, it says god will drive them into the flames and roast them.
So how is he going to have mercy on them or repay them for the good they did while at the same time as roasting them repeatedly?

I didn't ignore the verses you posted they just bare no relevance on anything I posted at all, if they do you, still haven't pointed out why they do.

There is verses that promise all those who do good paradise like the verse in my signature. How can this contradiction be reconciled? Perhaps by saying the verses condemning disbelievers in hell were specific to a group of disbelievers with certain traits at that time, like knowing the truth, oppressing believers, being at war with the Prophet and having seen miracles.

[Losty]

If god doesn't need believers, why did he create human beings?

So that they live and enjoy life without causing misery and armageddon to others. And this cannot be achieved without worshiping god.

If this is true, then why didn't god create human beings that would live and enjoy life while worshipping him and not causing misery and Armageddon to others?

[The Grand Nudger]

@Atlas
Last I checked, it wasn't men with their fingers on the armageddon trigger. Hows about giving credit wheres it's due for a change eh?