Math Educations: who needs it, how much and when?

[Dystopia]

What do you mean by opting out? In most cases you can't opt out, you need maths. I can say I make good calculations without writing down numbers (mentally) and can solve fractions problems. But I could never solve a more complex equation, I had shitty teachers until the 9th grade, and I didn't have maths on high school because I followed social sciences to get into law school later.

[Bibliofagus]

Watched the video. And I kinda agree with the conclusions.

That's okay. I kind of do too. I mean lots of teachers enjoy the subject they teach but they don't all get the opportunity to inflict it on everyone whether they want it or not. While a certain level of being able to use math appropriately is important for everyone, that probably gets covered by the end of elementary school.

And the skills needed are practiced throughout the whole school career in other subjects. Like economics and stuff.
But I'd say the practice and exposure to at least some math is needed throughout a school career, and I'd be very reluctant to make any other subject that touches on math obligatory instead of math.

In my schooldays they got around this by having 2 sorts of math. You had to choose one. There was a kind of easy math with lots of exercises that looked easy and like a story, and one that did algebra and geometry.

Of course, and especially here in the states, the argument against letting kids opt out is that the kids with the least support and wherewithal at home would be the ones opting out. So we'd basically be serving to maintain the status quo and doing nothing to give anyone a leg up.

While I totally agree with this I also remember lots of bright kids not getting the education they could have had because of math. This was mainly caused by the inflexibility of the school system in Holland. You had to make it though 4 years of pretty tough math before you could choose to drop it and concentrate on what you are good at. And some people, while brilliant, just don't get math. Even the easy one I mentioned. So they'd drop to a lower level where the math is easier.

[Minimalist]

So, for me, I sometimes wonder .. am I making everyone practice piano 2 hours a day just so those few who go on to become virtuosos will have received a proper start?

I despised math as a subject because it seemed inherently impractical. I'm not saying that there should not be advanced classes for kids who are talented in that area - I was not - but I agree with the gist of your comment.

What is happening is that by teaching trig and calculus you are graduating a bunch of kids who learned just enough to pass the tests and who will never ever use it again but who also can't do their own income tax return because they lack basic math skills.

The whole concept of "subject-based" education...as opposed to skills-based education seems, IMHO, to be geared more to the interests of the teachers/administration than the needs of the students.

[popeyespappy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Temc4-G0Fu4

[Jenny A]

Thank you Whaterverist for giving me something to ponder today.

I took math from algebra and geometry through trig, but not into calculus. We also did some computer programing in basic which was cutting edge back in the late 70s. I did reasonably well, except that as anyone paying attention to my proofing skills has probably guessed, I'm medium dyslexic and accurate simple addition and subtraction was the hardest part for me. The concepts were a breeze. And please don't boo me but I liked story problems. I really loved geometry proofs too. Puzzles for homework! Yay!

But I agree that I've had little use for math beyond addition and subtraction in college, law school, or daily life. I used trig once in the 30 years since I learned it for quilting designs and once to figure out how tall a tree was in our back yard. I've caclulatedted volume regularly for bark dust and stuff, but it's just arithmetic. English, history, civics, geography, science and even shop, have served me much better. They're also continuing interests whereas math is not, though I've enjoyed some books like 1, 2, 3, Infinity, The History of Pi, and Innumeracy.

However, math does teach a kind of thinking, that I think is important to learn. It also teaches precision which I was certainly in need of. I think there is real value in learning different ways of thinking. It's one of the reasons I think at least one foreign language should be a high school requirement (I really suck at languages except in writing---I have a tin ear).

The one suggestion in the video that I really liked was teaching logic. Logic, I took in both high school (we were spoiled it was an elective) and again in college. That I use daily.

Could we compromise and leave off math except for the science bound at algebra or geometry and teach logic instead of calc and trig? Statistics would be useful. That I didn't get til college, but I use the knowledge reading the news daily.

[Chad32]

I never liked highschool math. Basic math is needed, and you learn it in grade school. After that it seems like wasted time. I know how to add, subtract, multiply, and divide. Anything math related I should be able to handle with those skills. Of course I could be wrong, but I'm also sure those guys in NASA aren't just trying to do calculations in their heads either. they use computers, since math is definitely something computers do better than us.

[Whateverist]

What is happening is that by teaching trig and calculus you are graduating a bunch of kids who learned just enough to pass the tests and who will never ever use it again but who also can't do their own income tax return because they lack basic math skills.

The whole concept of "subject-based" education...as opposed to skills-based education seems, IMHO, to be geared more to the interests of the teachers/administration than the needs of the students.

This has led to enormous job dissatisfaction for many of us under No Child Left Alone. In California a bunch of parents and college math professors got together and backward planned from incoming math majors to kindergarten and that has established our scope, sequence and pacing for K-12 mathematics instruction for all kids. Our standards have been even more fast paced than the common core. No input was taken from college education departments (where there actually are a very few good heads) or teachers.

In addition, administrators have gone from being very grateful for everyone's input to being tyrannical micro managers, since their jobs hang in the balance. Professional development time which teachers gladly worked into the schedule in better times, has become complete administration controlled and look like pre-service silly stuff. All in all, my job pretty much sucks now .. except that I can relate to the age group pretty well, even better now that I remind them of their grandfather and not their father. Somehow I still think I brighten some days.

One thing I've always done is speak truth to power. That hasn't won me a lot of friends in administration, but I do have the respect of parents and many teachers. I've stopped taking on student teachers because I just can't recommend the field to anyone. I think next year I'll level with students that they probably won't need high school math except as an arbitrary gate key into college and if they take particular majors and seek out a very few careers. I'll continue to encourage them to get what they can out of it both to improve their minds, make the folks happy, get into college and just in case their future interests take them in a surprising direction which requires more math.

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But I agree that I've had little use for math beyond addition and subtraction in college, law school, or daily life. I used trig once in the 30 years since I learned it for quilting designs and once to figure out how tall a tree was in our back yard. I've caclulatedted volume regularly for bark dust and stuff, but it's just arithmetic. English, history, civics, geography, science and even shop, have served me much better. They're also continuing interests whereas math is not, though I've enjoyed some books like 1, 2, 3, Infinity, The History of Pi, and Innumeracy.

However, math does teach a kind of thinking, that I think is important to learn. It also teaches precision which I was certainly in need of. I think there is real value in learning different ways of thinking. It's one of the reasons I think at least one foreign language should be a high school requirement (I really suck at languages except in writing---I have a tin ear).

The one suggestion in the video that I really liked was teaching logic. Logic, I took in both high school (we were spoiled it was an elective) and again in college. That I use daily.

Could we compromise and leave off math except for the science bound at algebra or geometry and teach logic instead of calc and trig? Statistics would be useful. That I didn't get til college, but I use the knowledge reading the news daily.

If you've been through law school you obviously got all that you needed from what math has to offer. The logic obviously was a nice bonus. I completely agree about the importance of statistics as a core skill.

Like you I enjoy the subject and recognize several ways in which it is a boon for anyone. But isn't that true about a lot of subjects? I'm glad you found a way to get what you needed and found things to enjoy/appreciate too .. even with the dyslexia challenge.

[pocaracas]

Whateverist, have you seen this presentation?

[Mudhammam]

In college I made halfway through Algebra before I quit going. Does that count for anything?

[Jenny A]

In college I made halfway through Algebra before I quit going. Does that count for anything?

That's punny.

But do you need more math than algebra?

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Whateverist, have you seen this presentation?

I'd say that sums up my feelings on the subject, except that those weren't exactly my feels until I listened to him. I think he's got it exactly right. I don't think it would make every math student happy though. For many people getting the concept and formulating the equation is the really hard part.