Math Educations: who needs it, how much and when?

[Whateverist]

For many people getting the concept and formulating the equation is the really hard part.

Yet that is where all the power is in the end. Being able to construct an equation to model a quantitative situation is when you're really using math as a language. Well, I suppose that is really when you're applying math as a language. When you use it to formulate properties of numbers or operations is probably more essential in a way.

Now I need to listen to this video .. as soon as I'm dressed and ready for the repairman who is supposed to be on my door step soon.

[Mudhammam]

But do you need more math than algebra?

Yeah, I think I would (if I go back).

[Whateverist]

Whateverist, have you seen this presentation?

I have now. What a refreshing change it would be if calculation wasn't the main event. That is what frustrates everyone. I make light of calculating mistakes. I like to say they must be the same species as me, human all too human. I like the bit about emphasizing being able to program a computer to do the calculation rather than executing it ourselves on paper. That is like figuring out an algorithm rather than executing it. It is a different focus point. I like the idea of talking about the four steps and just de-emphasizing the third one ... not because it doesn't deserve some attention but because we have been consumed by it.

[Minimalist]

Certainly there is a reason why teaching has a 50% attrition rate in the first 5 years.

[Natachan]

I'm an engineering student, and I'm about to finish my math class career with differential equations. I'm a returning student and my original major was classics. I've tutored and taught math through intro calculus to high school and college students. So you would think I lived math in school.

You'd be wrong. I failed my pre-calc class in high school. I was 17 and more interested in flitting than analytical geometry. And looking back I think I know why I didn't like math.

Math to me seemed rather pointless. I saw some basic addition, subtraction, arithmetic problems as being useful. Bit beyond that it seemed pointless. So why bother? While teachers kept SAYING math was useful it didn't apply to any of the other things I was learning. It wasn't until I started taking very heavy science courses that it did become integrated and useful.

That only addresses motivation. My experience from tutoring high level math is that it's often not taught right. Teachers tend to overcomplicate it and it frustrates students.

[Whateverist]

I'm an engineering student, and I'm about to finish my math class career with differential equations. I'm a returning student and my original major was classics. I've tutored and taught math through intro calculus to high school and college students. So you would think I lived math in school.

You'd be wrong. I failed my pre-calc class in high school. I was 17 and more interested in flitting than analytical geometry. And looking back I think I know why I didn't like math.

Math to me seemed rather pointless. I saw some basic addition, subtraction, arithmetic problems as being useful. Bit beyond that it seemed pointless. So why bother? While teachers kept SAYING math was useful it didn't apply to any of the other things I was learning. It wasn't until I started taking very heavy science courses that it did become integrated and useful.

That only addresses motivation. My experience from tutoring high level math is that it's often not taught right. Teachers tend to overcomplicate it and it frustrates students.

Yeah, when I went into teaching there were many times when I was asked to write an essay on who inspired me. I had to admit, it wasn't that I saw anyone teach math well. Quite the opposite. But there are times when you don't want to over-simplify the math. When kids learn basic operations it is important that they do so in a way that lays bare the essential nature of the operation. If it feels like a mindless routine it is probably a waste of time.

[pocaracas]

Whateverist, have you seen this presentation?

I have now. What a refreshing change it would be if calculation wasn't the main event. That is what frustrates everyone. I make light of calculating mistakes. I like to say they must be the same species as me, human all too human. I like the bit about emphasizing being able to program a computer to do the calculation rather than executing it ourselves on paper. That is like figuring out an algorithm rather than executing it. It is a different focus point. I like the idea of talking about the four steps and just de-emphasizing the third one ... not because it doesn't deserve some attention but because we have been consumed by it.

Do note that that's the guy responsible for the program Mathematica, which enables you to program any problem into it and it just solves it. IT has an actual function called "Solve"!!
He's also the guy behind Wolfram Alpha, a very simplified online version of Mathematica.

[Natachan]

I'm an engineering student, and I'm about to finish my math class career with differential equations. I'm a returning student and my original major was classics. I've tutored and taught math through intro calculus to high school and college students. So you would think I lived math in school.

You'd be wrong. I failed my pre-calc class in high school. I was 17 and more interested in flitting than analytical geometry. And looking back I think I know why I didn't like math.

Math to me seemed rather pointless. I saw some basic addition, subtraction, arithmetic problems as being useful. Bit beyond that it seemed pointless. So why bother? While teachers kept SAYING math was useful it didn't apply to any of the other things I was learning. It wasn't until I started taking very heavy science courses that it did become integrated and useful.

That only addresses motivation. My experience from tutoring high level math is that it's often not taught right. Teachers tend to overcomplicate it and it frustrates students.

Yeah, when I went into teaching there were many times when I was asked to write an essay on who inspired me. I had to admit, it wasn't that I saw anyone teach math well. Quite the opposite. But there are times when you don't want to over-simplify the math. When kids learn basic operations it is important that they do so in a way that lays bare the essential nature of the operation. If it feels like a mindless routine it is probably a waste of time.

This is true, but most of my experience in tutoring and teaching comes from higher level math. My calc three teacher laid out a proof of an idea using three boards and six terms. To illustrate his point he did not need that. I did the same basic proof with one board and three terms. (It was something about the arc length for curves for which the vector equation is known) This really did show the problem. Most folks when they get past basic pre-algebra aren't taught right. And I think it has to do a lot with the next HUGE problem I have with education in general.

Math is a process. When you are coaching a basketball team you have 8-10 kids, a coach, and likely an assistant coach. Each kid is shown how to stand, how to hold the ball, how to dribble, etc. Each kid receives personal attention from a coach or assistant. Math classes should work the same. Putting thirty or more kids in with one teacher to show them these patterns and processes is insane.

[Combanitorics]

I enjoy mathematics myself.  I'm currently in the process of going back to college and have been taking algebra at Seattle Central.  I get a lot of satisfaction out of finding the answer.  To me, in algebra, the process feels a bit like working on a minigame puzzle in a video game.  I'm not far enough along yet to really see any problems with direct bearing on the real world, although I'm sure that when I get to calculus I'll see some with a bearing on physics, and that statistics will address all manner of real world concerns.  But for now, I feel like I'm learning the vocabulary of a language or the elements.
I think that math is essentially the language we use to describe the world around us, and as such is as important to learn as our natural languages.  Not learning math seems like it keeps people in the dark, abstract thought and reason wise.

[Anomalocaris]

In college I made halfway through Algebra before I quit going. Does that count for anything?

If you are still taking algebra in college, it is probably too late for you to ever make much use of math beyond arithmetics.