WHY was Jesus cricified?

[RobbyPants]

Because God's sense of justice requires it.

So, God's sense of justice requires him to sacrifice a third of himself to another third of himself to appease that second third, and then to resurrect that first third and bring him back to heaven?

Weird. Seems like a good paradigm for atonement and justice.

How does saying "I'm sorry" atone for your wrongs to one person, but not to another? How does paying a fine to the state atone for going through a stop sign? How does prison time atone for anything anyway - former convicts are now free people?

ETA: How does one atone for murder?

If my child A hits child B and I tell child B to simply forgive A, does that mean that I must likewise do so, and cannot punish A? If I do punish A, does that mean that B must also punish A in the same manner?

If a president pardons one criminal, why doesn't he simply pardon them all?

Is your god great, or not? Why do apologists always insist on answering these questions by comparing God to humans?

Do humans have the ability to atone for the sin of others by committing a sacrifice? Does God have the ability to atone for the sin of others by committing a sacrifice?

If the answers to these questions are different, then your previous questions are moot and off-topic.

---

Jesus isn't just one person paying for another person's sin. Though he remains divine he becomes a human to represent the whole of humanity in bearing their physical death (dying on the cross) and spiritual death (experiencing abandonment from the Father when he says ' Father why have you forsaken me'). Which should have been borne by humanity because of the choices of Adam (the first human representative).

Jesus is a sacrifice - because he died. But if he dies only our slate is wiped clean but we're not at one with God. In his resurrection he was a 'first fruits' of a new humanity so that we may share in his new humanity which is everlasting relationship with God i.e. atonement - we become one with God. So atonement requires Jesus death, resurrection and ascension.

So, how does this mechanism work?

He symbolically pays everything while functionally paying nothing to somehow erase the real sins? That sounds a lot like me paying for a mansion with a giant novelty check that isn't actually worth any money.

[John V]

So, God's sense of justice requires him to sacrifice a third of himself to another third of himself to appease that second third, and then to resurrect that first third and bring him back to heaven?

Weird. Seems like a good paradigm for atonement and justice.

Your opinion is noted. That's what positions on justice boil down to - opinions.

Is your god great, or not? Why do apologists always insist on answering these questions by comparing God to humans?

Er, you were comparing God to humans yourself. Remember the whole if we're instructed to simply forgive (which was shown to be a false premise) why can't god line you were pursuing?

Do humans have the ability to atone for the sin of others by committing a sacrifice? Does God have the ability to atone for the sin of others by committing a sacrifice?

If the answers to these questions are different, then your previous questions are moot and off-topic.

I agree - I was lampooning your comparison of God to men. I'm glad we're on the same page now.

[Jenny A]

[RobbyPants]

Er, you were comparing God to humans yourself. Remember the whole if we're instructed to simply forgive (which was shown to be a false premise) why can't god line you were pursuing?

No. I wasn't comparing the ability of God to the ability of humans. I was questioning why God commands us to forgive yet refuses to do so himself.

You, then asked a bunch of questions about what people would do to justify God's "justice". Your equivocation is false.

[Jenny A]

@ no one in particular:

Is it that you don't understand what Christianity teaches about Christ's sacrificial atonement, or is it that you reject what Christianity teaches about Christ's sacrificial atonement?

I can recite several different permutations of the Christian view of how Christ's sacrificial atonement is supposed to work, but they make no emotional, logical or moral sense to me. If there were a god and he operated in such a way, then divine moral sense and human moral sense would have little to do with each other.

[John V]

No. I wasn't comparing the ability of God to the ability of humans. I was questioning why God commands us to forgive yet refuses to do so himself.

And you've been answered multiple times. God tells us to forgive because we've been forgiven ourselves.

You, then asked a bunch of questions about what people would do to justify God's "justice". Your equivocation is false.

If you answered those questions, we'd see again that justice is a matter of opinion. Yours is different from god's.

---

I can recite several different permutations of the Christian view of how Christ's sacrificial atonement is supposed to work, but they make no emotional, logical or moral sense to me. If there were a god and he operated in such a way, then divine moral sense and human moral sense would have little to do with each other.

Hold on there, cowgirl. you don't get to claim your moral sense as equivalent to human moral sense. The large numbers of Christians across time and culture indicates that God's sense of justice is within the bounds of humanity's sense of justice. That it's nonsensical to you doesn't mean that it's nonsensical period.

[orangebox21]

[Minimalist]

I wasn't trying to prove the story is true. That wasn't Robbypants' question. His question was about the meaning of Jesus death.
I was just saying how the Bible explained it - not sure how that's bullshitting to the nth degree. Feel free to suggest alternative explanations by all means.

So, if you don't think the story is true, then what was jesus' "sacrifice" about? The bible is a house of cards. If you start dismissing the foundational stories the whole thing comes tumbling down.

If there was no "fall of man" then who needs "jesus?" And to believe that the fall of man actually happened is roughly akin to adhering to any other creation mythology put forward by other cultures across the world.

It's the 21st century. Time to abandon ancient superstition.

[Jenny A]

I can recite several different permutations of the Christian view of how Christ's sacrificial atonement is supposed to work, but they make no emotional, logical or moral sense to me. If there were a god and he operated in such a way, then divine moral sense and human moral sense would have little to do with each other.

Hold on there, cowgirl. you don't get to claim your moral sense as equivalent to human moral sense. The large numbers of Christians across time and culture indicates that God's sense of justice is within the bounds of humanity's sense of justice. That it's nonsensical to you doesn't mean that it's nonsensical period.

Nope, I don't. But I don't think any moral system that allow for the killing of one person in lieu of others in sensible. Humans certainly did a number of things in the past that most people would consider immoral now such and the death penalty for pick-pocketing, punishment of sons for the crimes of their fathers. Some Middle Eastern countries still punish women for being raped and sentence men to have their sisters or daughters raped. But most of us have grown beyond that. It appears to me that god has not. ----You'd expect him to be ahead of us rather than behind.

[Crossless2.0]

Hold on there, cowgirl. you don't get to claim your moral sense as equivalent to human moral sense. The large numbers of Christians across time and culture indicates that God's sense of justice is within the bounds of humanity's sense of justice. That it's nonsensical to you doesn't mean that it's nonsensical period.

Nope, I don't. But I don't think any moral system that allow for the killing of one person in lieu of others in sensible. Humans certainly did a number of things in the past that most people would consider immoral now such and the death penalty for pick-pocketing, punishment of sons for the crimes of their fathers. Some Middle Eastern countries still punish women for being raped and sentence men to have their sisters or daughters raped. But most of us have grown beyond that. It appears to me that god has not. ----You'd expect him to be ahead of us rather than behind.

Though alpha male doesn't see it this way, obviously the reason God lags behind us in our sense of justice is because his sense of justice was supplied to him by his very human creators, and they were barbarians.