God's Nature and character

[FatAndFaithless]

In which case your claim that all children go to heaven earlier was false.

The children in the passages under discussion were not killed by parents thinking they were doing the children a favor. If you modify the situation, I may need to modify my position as well. How about, all children go to heaven unless killed by someone believing it will send them to heaven, in which case god decides as he sees fit.

---

Why didn't you just start off saying "God can do whatever he wants with the rules whenever he wants for whatever reason he wants" and end the argument?

Because the amount of information I gave was adequate for the situation at hand, which did not involve parents killing their children in the belief it will send them to heaven. If you guys change the scenario, then yes, I may need to modify my positions.

Why would the motivation of the parents matter? The child is innocent in this, he/she didn't choose to be killed.

[Losty]

People are born into sin. There is no innocence.

[John V]

Why would the motivation of the parents matter? The child is innocent in this, he/she didn't choose to be killed.

Maybe that's how god sees it. We don't know, as the Bible doesn't specifically say.

[FatAndFaithless]

Why would the motivation of the parents matter? The child is innocent in this, he/she didn't choose to be killed.

Maybe that's how god sees it. We don't know, as the Bible doesn't specifically say.

And maybe it isn't?

[Baqal]

@Alpha male
-Maybe that's how god sees it. We don't know, as the Bible doesn't specifically say.
If you will always return to the "God will do as He wishes in the end", why bother saying about what God wants from us and how his system of justice works? Do you somehow have the power to see what's going on inside of God's mind?

[Raven]

Welsh Cake said:
Its sad that in desperate emotional need to get that "cozy warm feeling" that something is watching over you, they've chosen to ignore the real and true wonder of the vast cosmos that is staring at them in the face .

Aye, there's the rub! I believe that to be inherently human. The vast bulk of humanity seems to have this inherent need to be “watched over” by some kind of parental proxy long after childhood is over. I suppose that is not at all surprising because the world can be quite the cold, hard, nasty place. So if sky-daddy is watching over everything then it will somehow turn out right in the end. And if not, then you shall surely get your reward in heaven, right? Never mind that this is all wish-thinking.

I suppose that this provides some sort of comfort. But at a very high cost. For the most part, Xtianity is always beating up on its adherents. Calling them sinners, unworthy and all kinds of other abusive stuff. The more you look at it, the more you realize that it engenders a slave mentality in its followers, at least insofar as their “relationship” with god goes. And it scares the crap out of them with all its' nasty depictions of the hell to come if you are not up to snuff with your creator. And yet they still think that this god of theirs is kind and loving and they get that “cozy warm feeling”. Sounds like some kind of BDSM deal to me.

CindyRain said:
I don't know if ShaMan was referring to Jesus or not.

But if he was, you have to ask yourself what decent father would subject their child to that kind of torture? Most parents would die for their children, not send them to be executed.

True as could be. But in that inside-out, upside-down, bizarro world of the bible, Lot wanted to send his own daughters out to be raped by the crowd to save the two strangers in his house. And he was the “righteous” man who was worthy of being saved. OK, you're not going to let the crowd get at your guests, but who the fuck is going to offer up their own girls like that?

That has to be the most indecent book ever written.

 
ShaMan Wrote:  Would a 'perfectly just' god condemn someone for the crime of another. That, to me, seems like the epitome of injustice.
alpha male wrote:God didn't condemn someone for the crime of another. Jesus volunteered.
Zen Badger wrote:
What does this even mean?

Volunteered for what? Taking the blame for humanities supposed sins that are only sins because god fucking decided they were.

Do you ever actually listen to the drivel you spout?

You know how it goes: God said it, I believe it, that settles it.
The xtian way of sticking your fingers in your ears and going la la la la la, I can't hear you!
The worst part of it is, they don't even question it. I did. That's why I don't believe anymore. On some level I think they realize that if they question it, then they will also stop. That they can't bear the thought of because they still want that illusional comfort they think they are getting from it. Further, if they stop believing then what will happen to their friends and family? They know all too well what their current support system thinks of athiests. My family doesn't speak to me anymore, for quite some time know. My wife still believes, and could deal with it. Her family sort of just shrugged about it. But my family was very Catholic. Rosary beads, holy pictures, medals – all that. Stature of Mary in the front yard. Scapula. The whole nine. It can be costly in a personal sense. Shouldn't be, but it is.

Losty said:
Christianity is ambiguous for a reason. It doe not wish to allow for loopholes that would leave any person believing that they're innocent. It's so much easier to scare people into submission when they a) believe that they need your love for survival, and b) are undeserving of that love.

That pretty much sums it up.

[John V]

And maybe it isn't?

Maybe. Another alternative is that, being omniscient, God could know what that child would have grown up to be if his parents hadn't killed him, and treat him accordingly. Note that that alternative is not specific to this situation. I could have used this defense against the initial charge. But, I do think an age of accountability doctrine can be derived from the Bible and does generally apply.

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@Alpha male
-Maybe that's how god sees it. We don't know, as the Bible doesn't specifically say.
If you will always return to the "God will do as He wishes in the end", why bother saying about what God wants from us and how his system of justice works? Do you somehow have the power to see what's going on inside of God's mind?

Your questions don't make sense. No, I don't have the power to see what's going on inside of God's mind, and that's why I may need to sometimes say that he will do as he wishes in the end at times when people take speculation to very specific scenarios not explicitly covered int he Bible.

[jesus_wept]

In which case your claim that all children go to heaven earlier was false.

The children in the passages under discussion were not killed by parents thinking they were doing the children a favor. If you modify the situation, I may need to modify my position as well. How about, all children go to heaven unless killed by someone believing it will send them to heaven, in which case god decides as he sees fit.

I was being flippant when I asked whether the reason it's not spelt out clearer is to stop Christians doing their children a favour but I think the point about parents is a bit of a red herring because, even if I give you that, we're still left in the awful position that children being killed is something to rejoice about. So, if you dont mind, I shall modify my original question to suit your backpedal.

So killing children is actually doing them a favour, as long as the person murdering them doesn't believe it will send them to heaven, because they'll go to heaven and avoid any chance of going to hell?

Also, what does your god do with the children he's decided not to send to heaven because their parents killed them believing they'd go to heaven? This seems awfully close to punishing the child for the crimes of their parents and I do hope I dont need to point out how abhorrent this is.

[Baqal]

@Alpha male
-No, I don't have the power to see what's going on inside of God's mind, and that's why I may need to sometimes say that he will do as he wishes in the end at times when people take speculation to very specific scenarios not explicitly covered int he Bible.
The Bible offers us many information concerning God and his Will, but how can we know that the Bible is true?

[John V]

The children in the passages under discussion were not killed by parents thinking they were doing the children a favor. If you modify the situation, I may need to modify my position as well. How about, all children go to heaven unless killed by someone believing it will send them to heaven, in which case god decides as he sees fit.

I was being flippant when I asked whether the reason it's not spelt out clearer is to stop Christians doing their children a favour but I think the point about parents is a bit of a red herring because, even if I give you that, we're still left in the awful position that children being killed is something to rejoice about. So, if you dont mind, I shall modify my original question to suit your backpedal.

So killing children is actually doing them a favour, as long as the person murdering them doesn't believe it will send them to heaven, because they'll go to heaven and avoid any chance of going to hell?

Also, what does your god do with the children he's decided not to send to heaven because their parents killed them believing they'd go to heaven? This seems awfully close to punishing the child for the crimes of their parents and I do hope I dont need to point out how abhorrent this is.

Another alternative is that, being omniscient, God could know what that child would have grown up to be if his parents hadn't killed him, and treat him accordingly. Note that that alternative is not specific to this situation. I could have used this defense against the initial charge. But, I do think an age of accountability doctrine can be derived from the Bible and does generally apply.