Why knocking is so important.

[Ravenshire]

Sorry Drich. This bullshit doesn't fly. The last I heard, my president didn't want to have a personal relationship with me (as I keep hearing from you christers) nor does he want me to fall on my knees and slobber his co... er... worship him. If he did, your fucking-a right I would expect him to seek me out.

If mixing metaphors in to straw men is the only way to make your point then, make it is better that you do not make your point known.

You are the one who said it's unreasonable for gawd to seek us out. But, when it wants the things it does, it needs to.

You're really bad at the whole analogy thing aren't you?

Sorry, but many, in my experience most, people don't go "searching" for a mate. Most find one anyway. Even if I do go "searching" for a mate, it doesn't mean there's anyone searching in return. According to you christers, jeebus is doing just that, yet many of the people actively searching for it as well simply can't find it. Hmmmm. Maybe it just isn't there.

Do people not date any more? Or maybe they do not date where your from...

Dating and "seeking a mate" are not mutually inclusive. Most of the "dates" I've been on have been because I wanted to spend time with someone, usually trying to get in her pants. Not, usually, trying to find a mate.

Sorry Drich, you still suck at analogies. Comparing an invisible, unprovable sky fairy to real people just doesn't work.

---

That's not to say someone steeped in self delusion could not use this method to confirm whatever he likes.

Oh, the fucking irony.

[Jenny A]

I'm suggesting that if your method of looking will turn up a number of very different contradictory gods, it's a bad method, that confirms what you were seeking, whatever it was that you were seeking. As it confirms anything you look for, it's simply a method of self delusion.

actually it won't because none of the other gods make this claim.
That's not to say someone steeped in self delusion could not use this method to confirm whatever he likes. But, again as I have illustrated some perfectly adjusted member of society could also use this method to find themselves a spouse.

That's absurd. Either it works or it doesn't. To suggest that looking for gods other than yours is ignoble, presupposes the answer thus negating the need for the tool.

Sorry, a lifetime of looking is not remotely reasonable. If someone told me to look for an elephant in my house and a day's looking didn't turn up an elephant I'd stop. Any sensible person would.

and if you wanted to find a husband, but could not find a suitable mate right away? Then what would you quit just because your first attempts failed? Or would you keep looking?

You missed the point. Men exist. There's no reason to believe god does.

There's plenty of evidence marriageable men exist and none that god does.

only if you know where to look. If you only looked at a battered woman's shelter (where their is an absence of real love that a husband shares with a wife) or if you looked in a country where the married women are made to wear big black sheets, I'd bet you would have a different opinion. But rather because you haven't given up on getting marriage you have seen at least a glimmer of the positive love a man can have for his wife somewhere.

The same is true with our relationship with God. One can not see evidences, if one does not know where or how to look. (It's like only viewing love through that women's shelter.)

It would be very hard not to see the existence of men good or bad. God on the other hand is very much absent from view everywhere including the church.

If I had been looking for unicorns, I have given up long before 30.

And what if you were privy to have met a unicorn once?
Would you give up so easily?

I might look longer, but not if I'd only seen the unicorn in my head. BUT if haven't met god, not even once.

[quote='Drich' pid='728352' dateline='1407787634']
[quote] Thanks, but no. I've found a sense of morality, no god required. What is a "spiritual hippy sense of morality" and why would anyone want it?

And no, it's not like looking for your car keys. The keys exist and you need them. God doesn't and I don't need him.

The funny thing about 'no God required morality' is that it's tied to our various societies. Get the wrong one and your putting God's people into gas chambers and then ovens.

Like god required morality that leads to burning people at the stake for heresy? Or stoning women for being raped? Frankly, no god required morality tends to be, well, more moral.

[jesus_wept]

Perhaps it is you who should apply the same level of scrutiny to the voice in your head as you do mine? I have already done the test you said to do so why should I have to keep doing more while you just get to sit there and smugly assert that I should keep trying?

then explain to me how you went about testing. If you do not wish me to assert let's examine and scrutinize your actual effort.

You seem to have a real problem answering questions and addressing points.

Here's a test we can both perform, let's ask our "deities" something no human being knows, something useful like "what is dark matter?". If mine cant tell me what it is then I'm willing to admit I might be deluding myself and the voice in my head is neither external or the creator of the universe. If yours cant then I expect you will make excuses. You never know, you might even get a Nobel Prize out of it.

nounASTRONOMY
(in some cosmological theories) nonluminous material that is postulated to exist in space and that could take any of several forms including weakly interacting particles ( cold dark matter ) or high-energy randomly moving particles created soon after the Big Bang ( hot dark matter ).

And c&p from dictionary.com isn't generally Nobel prize effort is it?

Again you've missed the point, and the text you quoted doesn't actually say what dark matter is... in the future it might be worth learning to comprehend the English language before posting, unless you actually want people to think you're an idiot who isnt worth arguing with?

I also notice your god was unable to answer the question so you have unintentionally proven my point, whether you like it or not.

Thanks for the laughs but I'm afraid I dont think much else needs to be said, so I shall simply bid you farewell and leave you to your delusion of being god's special little snowflake.

---

I cant leave this thread without adding that every time I look at the thread title I think of this old joke.

Knock knock
"Who's there?"
"Jesus"
"What do you want?"
"To save you"
"What from?"
"From what I'm going to do to you if you dont let me in!"

[RobbyPants]

actually it won't because none of the other gods make this claim.

Actually, you don't know your god makes this claim; all you know is that people say he does.

That's not to say someone steeped in self delusion could not use this method to confirm whatever he likes. But, again as I have illustrated some perfectly adjusted member of society could also use this method to find themselves a spouse.

...and here's where you just proved your whole A/S/K thing unreliable. Even if you get an "answer", its impossible to tell the difference between genuine revelation and delusion and self-deception.


So, care to stop touting this A/S/K method, since you just admitted that you can't use it to find any truth behind anything reliably?

[Thumpalumpacus]

ah, no. Feelings have nothing to do with biblical Christianity.

God has given me revelation and insight in business and in exegetical matters well beyond what I have train for. (That is why I can answer your unanswerable questions concerning biblical Christianity.)

Are you being deliberately obtuse? You either sensed your god's presence or you didn't. My point is that sensation, in whatever form may have been mistaken.

and this point fails because it assumes that communication is based on feeling.

Aside from the fact that this claim of yours is obviously incorrect, you're ignoring how rude and arrogant you're being.

So I'll return you the favor and tell you that your feeling of your god's presence/spirit/holy ghost is strong evidence of psychosis.

Get the point now?

no where in the bible does it say God is an Omni max God. If you believe otherwise please provide book chapter and verse.

Thanks for asking. See, I can do this A/S/K thing. You ask me something, I am happy to answer ... unlike an imaginary deity who comes to mind. Here, here's just a few references to your god's power, as listed in your holy book. I'm surprised you don't seem to know this ... I would think someone claiming to worship a being would study every scrap of material about him. Anyway:

Your god is omnipresent.

He runs everything, even down to the flight of sparrows. See also Romans 1:20

Being omnipotent, or all-powerful, obviously includes being omniscient, for if one can do anything, one can look into the future, or past, or into a man's heart. But, you don't need to take my ord for it; your own Bible says as much.

So, we have omnipresence, omnipotence, and omniscience, sourced from your Bible.

Otherwise know what you believe to be the "Judeo-Christian God" is little more than a traditional/non biblical view of Him. One He seldom supports, and one that leaves you to believe because this 'traditional/non biblical version of God' does not exist, then no version of God can.

On the other hand, after going through the above referencing for you, I'm even more convinced that you really don't know what you're talking about, you have an incomplete knowledge of the Bible, and that means that your perception of your god, however it came about, is even more likely to be wishful thinking and nothing more.

I'm surprised your god would have such a poor emissary. Certainly if you're going to spread the word, you should first know, don'tcha think?

This is exactly what I mean by God allowing the trials of life to wash the foolishly built house away, and once your deeply beloved version was proven to be inaccurate, and if you kept knocking God could help you build your house on the rock.

As shown above, you don't even know what the Bible says about your god, so any claims you make about his nature lack any credibility.

and if God confirmed His presents to you while you thought He was an Omnimax God? Would you then tear down your house and seek out who God really is or would you continue to build your house that was built on the sand?

I follow evidence, and make my life comport with reality.

ah... No you didn't. If you discarded your Version of God once the experiences of your life showed you it was wrong, you followed the parable of the wise and foolish (you being the foolish one) builders to a tee.

No, your god doesn't exist, so after a time, I did the sensible thing: I put away my childish things, and moved on to more remunerative pursuits.

[Drich]

You might as well tell the pope to examine the proposition that Catholicism is a racket.

He might know it, but by god he will never admit it.

I'm sure they like the Pharisees of OT times are simply doing what they think is right in the absences of direction from God. Without direction only only has tradition. Many catholic based theological arguments begin and end with tradition... Kind like your appeal to the Pope as some sort of authority figure. (Because it is tradition to view him as such.)

And drich is not even the pope. Drich is effecting a strident confidence so as to allow him to ignore holes and deceits in his own belief system. He has zero interest in exposing himself to any exercise which would require him to critically examine his belief system.

Maybe that is why you all find it so easy to come up with points and theological arguments that leave me in a tail spin with nothing more to say that my original assertion, leaving me no other option than to attack you personally with unfounded allegations. Oh wait a tick, that is exactly what you've done here.

Maybe it's the other way round. I have questioned my position so well I found it to be unbreakable. So I bring it here and offer it up to you 'good' people to see what you can do with it.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I think you just didn't look long enough. You lost patience and settled for something that was more popular here.

Do you even know what I was looking for?

So close ... and yet so far away.

[Tonus]

That's not to say someone steeped in self delusion could not use this method to confirm whatever he likes. But, again as I have illustrated some perfectly adjusted member of society could also use this method to find themselves a spouse.

I think that this is an important point. Researchers are finding that our minds use a great deal of self-delusion; the things we are taught, the things we are told, the things we tell ourselves, the things we experience... all of these lead our minds to form our perception of the world, and how we deal with the world. Most people who succeed are highly optimistic and self-confident, far more than was probably warranted. By the same token, most people who fail are pessimistic and lack confidence, and they do much more poorly than their knowledge and skills would predict. We are who/what we think we are.

I think that finding god comes down to how deeply invested you are in finding him, much in the same way that achieving success in any endeavor is greatly influenced by how determined and confident you are. It may explain why it seems common for people who are hurting or in some kind of need to be more likely to 'find' god: he's a great psychological crutch in some situations.

[Drich]

And there are many of us who did presuppose it, and convinced ourselves that we had found god, but eventually realized that we had not. I know that the response to this is that I did not do it correctly (or something similar to that). But that reminds me of the explanations when people want to believe that god always answers prayers.

actually no. The answer is not that you did something wrong nor is it that God did not answer your prayers.

God answered your prayer. The result was the storm that took your religious beliefs away. (Just like in the parable of the wise and foolish builders) Why? Because again if God answered your prayers with what you believed in place, it would support the corrupt picture of God you already had. If God came to you and was radically different then you thought He should be then you would assume it was satan trying to fool you, thus further supporting your corrupt version of God.

As outlined by the parable of the wise and foolish builders. God sends the rains (trials of life) those who have a strong foundation, meaning those who have built their religious works and beliefs on an accurate picture of God will stand firm as Christ says this is akin to building on a solid rock foundation. Those who build their religious beliefs and works on tradition or some other religious work or view has built their house on the sand. Now when the rains come (in your case you prayed for them) it washes away your belief.

This act can be viewed one of two ways. As a point to start over and have God help you build on the Rock, or as a point to live apart from God. The condition of your heart will determine which path you take.

I think that it relies on the idea that god is not inclined to reveal himself to us. And I never found that to be a satisfying concept. It works against what the bible says he did (revealing himself to people frequently, sometimes with amazing displays of power) and what the bible says he wants (for each of us to find him and be saved). It does not seem sensible to me.

God is simple not in the business of revealing Himself to us on our terms. As that act would be very destructive to our faith. Rather God reveals Himself to those who have the where with all to Handel such a revelation.

Here in luke 11 tells us where and how to get the where with all needed to receive God.

---

I asked for two years and got nothing, when I couldn't make myself believe anymore.

God is not asking you to believe out of a vacuum. As with what I told to us in my last post. Apart of the reason you met silence is because God is not in the business of supporting a corrupt view of Himself. Meaning if you believe God is supposed to be XYZ, and He is Really 123, then by showing Himself to you while you hold an XYZ system of belief supports an inaccurate version of Him that will have you support this corrupt version rather than God Himself.

To not support your beliefs, had you abandon your old faith. This was by design. Again, this is what or the reason for the parable of the wise and foolish builders. Chirst told us this would happen through the course of our life. So that we maybe prepared for these storms and challenges to our system of belief.

The only faith we are required to expend is that of a mustard seed. If your religion of choice asks any more of you it holds an incorrect view of God. This mustard seed of faith is all it takes to A/S/K. If you can do this without a preconceived expectation as to who God is and How He is to answer you, then you will be given a measure of the Holy Spirit. (What better proof of God is their than God Himself?) if you are faithful to the measure of the Holy Spirit that you have been given, you will be given more. More means a greater interaction with God through spiritual fruit and gifts.

So, you're saying I have to ask for some undetermined number of years until I get the answer you think I should get, and that this somehow counts as proof?

no. What I am saying is whatever time line you put on your effort it will always require a little more. In short once you humble yourself before God and the idea that You will wait on God no matter what it takes.. God will show up. (That means if it takes a life time then In Your heart you are good with that.)

Sounds like an ad hoc assertion to let you move the goal posts around as long as you'd like. I think I'll pass.

you guys all act as if I made this stuff up. Read luke 11. This is what Christ Himself says it takes. All I am adding is that what it took for me.

Drich, have you ever wondered why your god isn't obvious, and why he must be continually seeked for an unspecified number of years before he can be "found"? Does it ever trouble you when other people find different gods?

God is so 'obvious' one has to be blind to not see what is in front of you, and they have to be deaf to not hear what has been said over and over again.

As far as why people find other gods is because at some point in life they stopped knocking, and settled with what they had. It saddens me, but it does not trouble me because I am doing my part to try and show people the way.[/quote]

---

You didn't answer my question. I said I knocked, got a response, but that I don't find the response credible due to lack of corroborating evidence. My own personal experiences are subjective and faulty.

What other evidence so you have to indicate that a God does exist? Why should I trust that the answer I got was reliable?

I have answer this question at least a dozen times now. Maybe read what I wrote to Robbie or tonus

[Tonus]

God answered your prayer.

That's kind of what I was referring to. If it works, then god. If it doesn't work, then god. Just fit the explanation to the results, and you confirm the results. But without a way to verify it for all to see, anyone can create an explanation that is self-serving. The explanation that there is no god, and that you find whatever you want to find, works just as well.

God is simple not in the business of revealing Himself to us on our terms.

Why not? Why would the pre-eminent power in the universe, a being of indescribable strength and unimaginable greatness, be so petty and fickle about letting us know he's there? Especially when he had no issues with revealing himself to people in the past, and making his presence very clear.

I don't understand how it would be ruinous to a person's faith for god to show himself. Wouldn't we be more likely to trust in god if we knew for certain that he exists? Isn't the idea that one day god will reward the faithful by allowing them into his presence? What's so wrong about showing up early?