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Is art subjective?
#21
RE: Is art subjective?
(August 16, 2014 at 10:34 am)Baqal Wrote:
(August 16, 2014 at 10:26 am)Blackout Wrote: Physical beauty standards. If beauty is subjective, then why do fashion designers only chose people with certain facial and physical features? Do you really think I could become a model if I was, let's say, ultra short, had a gigantic belly and my nose was un-proportional to the rest of my face?
It would entirely depend on location.
And you seem to be talking about the western standard of beauty, which seems to be more and more present around the world.
Do you think overweight women are ugly? Mauritanian and Nigerian people will not agree with you. Do you think women with long necks are ugly? The Pa Dong will not agree with you. Do you think scarred women are ugly? The Ethiopians will not agree with you.
And that's objective beauty for you. Each society will make a standard for the ideal beauty, both male and female, and it will vary around the world. The same can be said for objective morality, there might be a society where murder will be considered morally correct, but on western communities it isn't, that's what matters to me. The standard of beauty I'm talking about is the objective type for western societies. It may not be for others. I'm talking about objective beauty, not absolute (eg one that exists all around the world)

I don't care what they think over Ethiopia, I care about what the society I live in thinks, and to deny there is no pattern of objective beauty is wishful thinking at best. The day everyone can become a model because all 'beauties' are appreciated, then we can talk about subjective beauty.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#22
RE: Is art subjective?
(August 16, 2014 at 10:26 am)Blackout Wrote: Physical beauty standards. If beauty is subjective, then why do fashion designers only chose people with certain facial and physical features? Do you really think I could become a model if I was, let's say, ultra short, had a gigantic belly and my nose was un-proportional to the rest of my face?
Yes, you could become a model with those traits, if you were in a culture where those traits were considered beautiful.

(August 16, 2014 at 10:37 am)Blackout Wrote:
(August 16, 2014 at 10:34 am)Baqal Wrote: It would entirely depend on location.
And you seem to be talking about the western standard of beauty, which seems to be more and more present around the world.
Do you think overweight women are ugly? Mauritanian and Nigerian people will not agree with you. Do you think women with long necks are ugly? The Pa Dong will not agree with you. Do you think scarred women are ugly? The Ethiopians will not agree with you.
And that's objective beauty for you. Each society will make a standard for the ideal beauty, both male and female, and it will vary around the world. The same can be said for objective morality, there might be a society where murder will be considered morally correct, but on western communities it isn't, that's what matters to me. The standard of beauty I'm talking about is the objective type for western societies. It may not be for others. I'm talking about objective beauty, not absolute (eg one that exists all around the world)

I don't care what they think over Ethiopia, I care about what the society I live in thinks, and to deny there is no pattern of objective beauty is wishful thinking at best. The day everyone can become a model because all 'beauties' are appreciated, then we can talk about subjective beauty.
Finding the traits that most people do NOT consider beautiful is not the same as determining that what they DO consider beautiful is objective.

Nor does discovering what human traits many people call beautiful establish a global standard for beauty in art.
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#23
RE: Is art subjective?
(August 16, 2014 at 10:39 am)bennyboy Wrote:
(August 16, 2014 at 10:26 am)Blackout Wrote: Physical beauty standards. If beauty is subjective, then why do fashion designers only chose people with certain facial and physical features? Do you really think I could become a model if I was, let's say, ultra short, had a gigantic belly and my nose was un-proportional to the rest of my face?
Yes, you could become a model with those traits, if you were in a culture where those traits were considered beautiful.

The fact beauty varies within culture does not make it subjective, it's still objective to a certain culture. You're confusing absolute beauty with objective beauty. If 99% of people in society A consider beauty B to be beautiful, then it's an objective beauty standard for society A, and 1% of disagreement won't erase the general rule
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#24
RE: Is art subjective?
There is no objective beauty.
The fact that there are a lot of supposedly "objective" definitions of what is beautiful and what isn't shows further that beauty is entirely subjective and depends on the culture and location.

(August 16, 2014 at 10:43 am)Blackout Wrote: The fact beauty varies within culture does not make it subjective, it's still objective to a certain culture. You're confusing absolute beauty with objective beauty. If 99% of people in society A consider beauty B to be beautiful, then it's an objective beauty standard for society A, and 1% of disagreement won't erase the general rule
An objective standard never has no inconsistency or disagreement within itself. You also seem to appeal to popularity.
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#25
RE: Is art subjective?
(August 16, 2014 at 10:48 am)Baqal Wrote: There is no objective beauty.
The fact that there are a lot of supposedly "objective" definitions of what is beautiful and what isn't shows further that beauty is entirely subjective and depends on the culture and location.

(August 16, 2014 at 10:43 am)Blackout Wrote: The fact beauty varies within culture does not make it subjective, it's still objective to a certain culture. You're confusing absolute beauty with objective beauty. If 99% of people in society A consider beauty B to be beautiful, then it's an objective beauty standard for society A, and 1% of disagreement won't erase the general rule
An objective standard never has no inconsistency or disagreement within itself. You also seem to appeal to popularity.
I'm not appealing to popularity, but to chemical reactions most people's brains have when confronted with a set of beauty.

What I'm stating is that a small tiny fraction of beauty can be considered objective within a culture, most beauty will be subjective.

The fact 1% of people disagree doesn't erase the general rule of reactions people have when exposed to certain patterns of beauty. Let's make the analogy with moral values. Let's say 90% of people consider murder or child molesting wrong and 10% consider it right. Does that mean raping children or murdering can be a morally correct act? And if it's entirely subjective, why has it been made illegal in most countries?

By the way, a lot of men like overweight women on western societies, just not morbidly obese. The western beauty is related to health. Most people don't like overweight people because it's a sign of unhealthy behaviour. In those you mentioned states, being overweight is mostly a sign of wealth and beauty, just like in Europe it was once, but it faded away once countries developed themselves.

I could go on arguing on this but it has become completely useless, I probably won't change my mind and you won't change yours.

I'll just say one of my subjective appreciations of beauty - I really like slim women, more than extremely curvy big boobs ones. This is unpopular since the rule between males is curvy women, porn star type.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#26
RE: Is art subjective?
(August 16, 2014 at 10:58 am)Blackout Wrote: I'm not appealing to popularity, but to chemical reactions most people's brains have when confronted with a set of beauty.
So, you're appealing to their opinions? It's the same thing.

Quote:The fact 1% of people disagree doesn't erase the general rule of reactions people have when exposed to certain patterns of beauty. Let's make the analogy with moral values. Let's say 90% of people consider murder or child molesting wrong and 10% consider it right. Does that mean raping children or murdering can be a morally correct act? And if it's entirely subjective, why has it been made illegal in most countries?
Because the modern society today values conscious beings and sees the killing of conscious beings as morally unacceptable. The laws were different in the past. When a subjective set of moral values becomes acknowledged by the majority, it does not become objective.

Quote:By the way, a lot of men like overweight women on western societies, just not morbidly obese. The western beauty is related to health. Most people don't like overweight people because it's a sign of unhealthy behaviour. In those you mentioned states, being overweight is mostly a sign of wealth and beauty, just like in Europe it was once, but it faded away once countries developed themselves.
And this further proves my point that beauty is subjective, because it depends on the location, culture, and, in this example, the time.
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#27
RE: Is art subjective?
Baqal three questions:

1 - If there is a set of beauty that is cherished by most people in a determined society, the kind of beauty almost no one will call ugly, how do we call it? It's not objective as you put it, but it can't be subjective either.

2 - What if I argued that, unlike what you are saying, the 1% of people who disagree with the set of beauty, and for that matter, people from other cultures (many of them underdeveloped by the way) have a fully corrupt and idiotic sense of beauty and appreciation?

3 - Let's say we did a quiz to women showing pictures of several men and asking which one is more attractive... Obviously one of them would win, specially if we put, let's say, a Brad Pitt with an average Joe... Do you think this happens by chance, or that, it's just a biological preference that our bodies and minds are programmed to have? Why do you think men tend to like women with large hips? Because they give the image of being more able to have kids, it's scientifically possible to detect a beauty preference in people. If we don't want to call it objective, then we must find another word for it, but it's not subjective since most people won't be able to conceive a possible disagreement with the proposition.

By the way, arguing against your last point, that only proves that after all societies become developed the western set of beauty will be predominant worldwide. If people like overweight because it's a sign of health that's reasonable in a poor country, but how come no one in the west likes that as a general rule? We could bring up the fat is beautiful BS, but we all know it's unhealthy. And yes I can insult overweight people because I was once almost obese.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#28
RE: Is art subjective?
(August 16, 2014 at 3:00 pm)Blackout Wrote: Baqal three questions:
This is gonna be fun.

Quote:1 - If there is a set of beauty that is cherished by most people in a determined society, the kind of beauty almost no one will call ugly, how do we call it? It's not objective as you put it, but it can't be subjective either.
It is subjective and acknowledged by the majority. See what I said previously.

Quote:2 - What if I argued that, unlike what you are saying, the 1% of people who disagree with the set of beauty, and for that matter, people from other cultures (many of them underdeveloped by the way) have a fully corrupt and idiotic sense of beauty and appreciation?
You would be kind of an asshole.

Quote:3 - Let's say we did a quiz to women showing pictures of several men and asking which one is more attractive... Obviously one of them would win, specially if we put, let's say, a Brad Pitt with an average Joe... Do you think this happens by chance, or that, it's just a biological preference that our bodies and minds are programmed to have? Why do you think men tend to like women with large hips? Because they give the image of being more able to have kids, it's scientifically possible to detect a beauty preference in people. If we don't want to call it objective, then we must find another word for it, but it's not subjective since most people won't be able to conceive a possible disagreement with the proposition.
You did it again. Most people in this world also agree that there is a magical creator deity up in the sky. Do you agree with that? It's the majority!

Quote:By the way, arguing against your last point, that only proves that after all societies become developed the western set of beauty will be predominant worldwide. If people like overweight because it's a sign of health that's reasonable in a poor country, but how come no one in the west likes that as a general rule? We could bring up the fat is beautiful BS, but we all know it's unhealthy. And yes I can insult overweight people because I was once almost obese.
Unhealthy does not mean not beautiful. The undeveloped countries that are westernizing are likely to adopt the western standard of beauty.
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#29
RE: Is art subjective?
Quote:It is subjective and acknowledged by the majority. See what I said previously.
Not only acknowledged, but people respond positively to it more likely. Why do models always follow the beauty standard of proportional body and facial symmetry? Because society sees it as the ideal beauty. If we are not going to call it objective, then ideal will represent what society thinks of such beauty.
Quote:You would be kind of an asshole.
No, that's subjective too Wink
Quote:You did it again. Most people in this world also agree that there is a magical creator deity up in the sky. Do you agree with that? It's the majority!
Weak analogy fallacy. What has god got to do with beauty? Thinking
It doesn't change the fact people are more likely to respond positively to some sets of beauty.
Quote:Unhealthy does not mean not beautiful. The undeveloped countries that are westernizing are likely to adopt the western standard of beauty.
Then you corroborate with my view. The 1% of people that disagree are an exception, and exceptions do not invalidate the general rule. You and I seem to acknowledge the same pattern of beauty cherished by societies, only that you call it subjective and I call it objective. For me it's completely irrelevant what happens in the past and what will happen in the future, it's also irrelevant that other cultures think differently, I couldn't care less about them, considering that those cultures might also think genital mutilation and sexual discrimination are commendable moral acts. I determine objective beauty inside a society and a culture, on the present time. Worldwide, you are right that beauty is subjective at least for now, but inside every society there is a set of objective beauties, when everyone can become a model independently of their looks then I will believe beauty is subjective.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#30
RE: Is art subjective?
(August 16, 2014 at 3:27 pm)Blackout Wrote: Not only acknowledged, but people respond positively to it more likely. Why do models always follow the beauty standard of proportional body and facial symmetry? Because society sees it as the ideal beauty. If we are not going to call it objective, then ideal will represent what society thinks of such beauty.
Um, it is very likely that WESTERN models will follow western beauty standards.

Quote:No, that's subjective too ;)
HA

Quote:Weak analogy fallacy. What has god got to do with beauty?
It doesn't change the fact people are more likely to respond positively to some sets of beauty.
It has nothing to do with beauty, but the fact that the majority of people will acknowledge that claim to be factually true. Why do you not agree with what the majority says on this one?

Quote:Then you corroborate with my view. The 1% of people that disagree are an exception, and exceptions do not invalidate the general rule. You and I seem to acknowledge the same pattern of beauty cherished by societies, only that you call it subjective and I call it objective. For me it's completely irrelevant what happens in the past and what will happen in the future, it's also irrelevant that other cultures think differently, I couldn't care less about them, considering that those cultures might also think genital mutilation and sexual discrimination are commendable moral acts. I determine objective beauty inside a society and a culture, on the present time. Worldwide, you are right that beauty is subjective at least for now, but inside every society there is a set of objective beauties, when everyone can become a model independently of their looks then I will believe beauty is subjective.
And I have also said that the fact that there are a lot of "objective" definitions of what is beautiful further points to that the subject of beauty is open to stacking opinions, and also creating rules a society can impose on its people.
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