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(November 5, 2014 at 9:17 am)Aractus Wrote: Ah yes, but Dr. Cheng puts his arm in and his suit and shirt are not visible?
Cotton or wool suit! Duh!
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
It would have to be nylon or some other synthetic fabric. I hope the air conditioning was good in the building, else Chang would have been sweating like a bitch.
On the other side of the token, if the Cyberseats were wooden and presumably treated so as not to go all weird in the water, they'd need to be strong enough to withstand a Cyberman's full weight, perhaps allowing for some buoyancy of the water, for a prolonged period. Having a few of them go arse over tit, with a pile of saturated matchwood under them, is only slightly less dignified for the formerly proud warrior race than having them sitting down in the first place.
I did like the nod to the Tomb of the Cybermen in the way the water tombs echoed their Telosian ones.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
What kind of an executive would wear a synthetic suit? And even so, what kind of executive would wear a non-cotton shirt?
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50.-LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea.-LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
Those are the wrong kinds of questions to be asking in the doctor who universe
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
(November 4, 2014 at 10:57 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Why were their skeletal arses so obviously in ciontact with them, given they were encased in Cyberarmour?
Perhaps they are sporting this seasons arseless chaps for Cybermen?
MM
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" - Leonardo da Vinci
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
My comments on the finale should come as no surprise...
SPOILERS
The pollinating cyber-men was a good idea, and probably the only good idea. No wait, the old-design cyberhead was also a nice touch.
Didn't appreciate the subplot where the boy Danny killed is inexplicitly brought back to life (how?), when not enough time or consideration was ever given to exploit this are of the plot. As I said in my last comment, the relationship simply had no real pay-off.
Didn't appreciate the plot where the Doctor is made "president of the world" - in what universe is that plausible? Who would put an alien in charge of their entire planet?? This plot lead nowhere anyway.
Didn't appreciate Danny overriding his programming. 1. It's been done before, and done in a finale so why repeat the exact same plot again? 2. How-come he can over-ride his programming when he's completely dead and his personality isn't even from his old brain but from a computer simulation that is capable of shaping it however it wants? 3. How come he, and the Brigadier can override their programming but other cybermen can't? Do all those people have lesser "feelings" towards their loved ones? 4. Didn't really like the open cyberman helmet showing Danny's face, the scene would have worked better with it closed. And we also didn't need to know whether Danny's "personality" is returned to that exact body or not.
Didn't like the plot that the Master is "giving an army" to the Doctor. And why does the Doctor teleport the Master? Where does he supposedly teleport her to?
Didn't like the part where Clara claims to be the doctor to the cybermen - again it was utterly anti-climatic.
Really, really, really didn't like the plot that Danny destroys all the cybermen. At the very least he could have lead them away to be an army for good to be later used in the series. That could have lead to further far more interesting stories than this one.
Overall this is a story that didn't need to be drawn-out over two episodes, and in my view was no where near strong enough to be used as the series finale. The mid-series finale "angels take Manhattan" of the previous series was a much, much better example of a strong finale. And it was also way better than "The Name of the Doctor".
Overall the criticisms of this series remain: 1. WAY too much focus on the doctor and Clara and Danny, and not enough focus on the people unique to each episode who are important to the plot. Not enough attention given to the enemies. Not nearly enough threat from the enemies.
I can envision at least one other way how this episode could have been made: the cybermen are clearly imperfect as a product of Missy's experimental system. The Doctor and Clara (who in the episode didn't need to do anything to affect the outcome), could have instead reprogrammed and intentionally corrupted the programming of the cyberleader, ultimatly resulting in Missy's army becoming corrupted by their influence during their infancy (after they've jsut come out of their graves) and causing them to decide to go out and do good instead, they leave the planet (in a ship supplied by UNIT) to go and find wars to help the "good guys" win.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50.-LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea.-LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
November 8, 2014 at 9:19 pm (This post was last modified: November 8, 2014 at 9:23 pm by Cyberman.)
I echo the above sentiments, for the most part.
The Cybermen were a massive disappointment, I'm afraid. Here we had literally the largest Cyber army in the series' history - and they didn't do anything. Yes, they tore the plane apart; yes, they burned up the clouds. However that last thing could have been done by any old MacGuffin. Here, it was simply a way to remove both major threats in a single, literal, bound. That's what the Cybermen have become - a MacGuffin, on the level of Captain Kirk getting locked in a cupboard until the plot needed to dust him off to save Picard's arse in ST: Generations. And what about all the unactivated Cybermen still in their graves? It was explicitly mentioned that they wern't all hatching at once. Taking bets now on how many stories go by without ever referencing them.
If I had to re-plot it, I'd have had the newly-hatched Cybermen emerge as any human who suddenly found they'd returned to life would - confused, perhaps sad, longing to be with their loved ones, etc, similar to Danny's Cyber-resurrection. Ultimately they'd be totally horrified at what they'd become and with the Master's plans that they turn against her of their own volition. Earth is then left to come to terms with the influx of resurrected dead and integrate them into society (think Torchwood: Miracle Day). Something like that, anyway.
While I did enjoy Michelle Gomez's performance in Dark Water, here she was just goofing for the sake of it. There was just about the right amount of a sinister edge beneath the surface, though. Pity it didn't show through often enough. And I was truly shocked and upset by poor Osgood's death. It was so unnecessary and very poignant, both in the way it was handled and also from an historical angle - it's possible she was related to Sergeant Osgood, from The Daemons (she was clearly modelled on that character). And what the hell kind of drugs were those soldiers on, who were supposed to be guarding Missy? I know they were only extras, but they didn't even move after their prisoner was clearly free, let alone threatening to kill everyone.
I enjoyed the little touches - the Chaplet funeral parlour, the Brig's portrait à la Battlefield, plus the very intriguing (and also poignant) 'cameo' at the end. Rather ironic that he should end up as a Cyberman, seeing how his first (televised) job as Brigadier was battling their Invasion army - the same story that originated the other iconic nods in this two-parter.
I agree that the whole subplot with the little boy was simply handwaved. In fact, that whole storyline seemed like badly tacked-on filler. If they needed a reason for Danny not to be able to be resurrected, why even raise that possibility at all? Especially if you're not going to do anything with it. I think I smell an Army of Ghosts/Doomsday trick coming up at some point, where we had characters leaping in and out of Pete's World after it was declared impossible to do so.
I also liked the whole 'pretending everything's fine but really my heart's breaking' stuff in the café at the end. Unfortunately as an emotional moment it was undermined by the whole Father Christmas routine. It's about time Nick Frost appeared in the series though. I just hope it won't be too silly.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
(November 8, 2014 at 8:24 pm)Aractus Wrote: My comments on the finale should come as no surprise...
And I find myself disagreeing with some of them, surprisingly! It's weird, I was all set up to hate this one after the last one, and I kinda didn't. Comments after the hide tag.
SPOILERS
Quote:The pollinating cyber-men was a good idea, and probably the only good idea. No wait, the old-design cyberhead was also a nice touch.
I laughed when Kate dumped that thing on the ground. Just the right amount of call back to the last time UNIT tangled with the Cybermen.
Quote:Didn't appreciate the subplot where the boy Danny killed is inexplicitly brought back to life (how?), when not enough time or consideration was ever given to exploit this are of the plot. As I said in my last comment, the relationship simply had no real pay-off.
Well, I liked that it gave a little more context to Danny's soldier stuff, but they did totally bork it with the glowing light in Clara's hallway and the kid coming back when it's already been established that the mind is the only thing kept in the Nethersphere. It was way cheesy.
Quote:Didn't appreciate the plot where the Doctor is made "president of the world" - in what universe is that plausible? Who would put an alien in charge of their entire planet?? This plot lead nowhere anyway.
It's semi-plausible in the ridiculous Whoniverse, where weird alien shit falls from the sky all the time and there's only one person who reliably keeps his shit together. I was more concerned that suddenly the whole world is aware of all the alien stuff that's been going on again; the Cybermen were mentioned by name on a news broadcast as having been seen before, but the cracks in time from season five were, from a storytelling standpoint, created to wipe the slate clean on all the previous alien incursions to contemporary Earth to start again. That's why Amy didn't remember the Daleks in Victory of the Daleks and all that; those events had fallen out of time and Earth was now an alien virgin again. When did that change back?
Quote:Didn't appreciate Danny overriding his programming. 1. It's been done before, and done in a finale so why repeat the exact same plot again?
Yeah, because Doctor Who has never recycled plot points before.
Quote: 2. How-come he can over-ride his programming when he's completely dead and his personality isn't even from his old brain but from a computer simulation that is capable of shaping it however it wants?
He didn't delete his emotions in the Nethersphere, so he was still Danny, just uploaded into a Cyberman body. Now, one could argue very easily that the human consciousnesses are unnecessary for these Cybermen if they have to be changed so drastically to get them to work right, or that Danny's emotions could easily have been deleted by force as the Cybermen are wont to do, but at least there's some form of in-universe justification for your question, here. It just opens two more plot holes in its wake.
Quote: 3. How come he, and the Brigadier can override their programming but other cybermen can't? Do all those people have lesser "feelings" towards their loved ones?
I guess the Brig didn't delete his emotions either? I dunno, that whole part of the story feels like that thing Moffat does where he has two cool disparate ideas ("What if the Master was in charge of Heaven?!" and "What if the Cybermen rose from people's graves?!") that he then awkwardly combines. I guess it could be a callback to Doomsday, kinda? These civil service types with a strong sense of duty, overriding their cyber-programming?
Quote: 4. Didn't really like the open cyberman helmet showing Danny's face, the scene would have worked better with it closed. And we also didn't need to know whether Danny's "personality" is returned to that exact body or not.
Yeah, that whole thing was obviated by the consciousness uploading thing. It's like, what? Can the Cybermen not just build robot bodies? Why're they so hung up on converting people when it's the less efficient route to take?
Quote:Didn't like the plot that the Master is "giving an army" to the Doctor.
I liked what it was trying to say. I'd prefer a ham-fisted attempt at character building than a bombastic nothing of a finale any day.
Quote: And why does the Doctor teleport the Master? Where does he supposedly teleport her to?
Oh, he didn't. It's my understanding that Cyber-Brig straight up killed her.
Quote:Didn't like the part where Clara claims to be the doctor to the cybermen - again it was utterly anti-climatic.
I disliked it because it seems so unearned. Clara is not that much more capable than any of the other companions, so why does she get to occupy this spot in the series of being the Doctor's champion so many times? I like that they tried something with her this season, but it feels so forced.
Quote:Really, really, really didn't like the plot that Danny destroys all the cybermen. At the very least he could have lead them away to be an army for good to be later used in the series. That could have lead to further far more interesting stories than this one.
Ugh, now I really want that too.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
Quote:Oh, he didn't. It's my understanding that Cyber-Brig straight up killed her.
Nope. Cyber-brig's shot never makes contact with her, and the cybermen danny shoots earlier in the episode all explode on impact of the shots. It's my understanding that cybermen cannot disintegrate their enamies in the way that Daleks do, and even then the shot still has to make contact and the "disintegration effect" looks quite different. Also, the doctor holds Missy's device pointing down (i.e. pointing the nose of it at Missy), he never holds it in the kill position, and it makes a sound when the Doctor activates it, and it looks quite similar to the other two teleportation effects in the episode (although not completely identical, but it is the only one that's a close-up). The people killed in the previous episode (the other S07 finale "nightmare in silver" with the same model cybermen) were shot dead, not disintegrated. As a side-note they could rotate their heads all the way around, remove their hands and heads and continue to function (this goes back to the problem of the skeletons in the water which are clearly still connected together yet it's clear in "nightmare in silver" that if they're present they are not connected). To put it simply, if they wanted to kill her Brig's blast would have hit her and then should would have fallen down dead.
Also, one of the strangest things they did was to change the opening credits to put Jenna Coleman ahead of Capaldi and uses her eyes instead of his; all for no real pay-off in the episode itself.
There was just no suspense at all to this episode, it felt like it needed a stronger story behind it.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50.-LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea.-LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
It's weird, I was all set up to hate this one after the last one, and I kinda didn't. Comments after the hide tag. 
