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David Cameron copies Ben Affleck's approach to Islamic violence
October 10, 2014 at 4:32 pm (This post was last modified: October 10, 2014 at 4:38 pm by ForumMember77.)
Does his, obviously, superior intellect to Ben make this all the more disgusting ?
“ISIS has nothing to do with the great religion of Islam, a religion of peace that inspires daily acts of kindness…”
Kidding me, every day it's the same thing from the people in charge.
It's embarrassing and infuriating, as Muslims kill, rape and enslave their way across every societal boundary in Europe, our dear leaders line up in some grotesque parade of capitulation........... Why ?
Is it for Saudi oil deals ? I honestly don't know why. Muslims are some 4-5% of our total population now in the UK, the other 95% have to live under 24 hour terror alert. And he can say things like this ?
RE: David Cameron copies Ben Affleck's approach to Islamic violence
October 10, 2014 at 6:26 pm (This post was last modified: October 10, 2014 at 6:27 pm by Ben Davis.)
(October 10, 2014 at 4:32 pm)ForumMember77 Wrote:
Does his, obviously, superior intellect to Ben make this all the more disgusting ?
“ISIS has nothing to do with the great religion of Islam, a religion of peace that inspires daily acts of kindness…”
Kidding me, every day it's the same thing from the people in charge.
It's embarrassing and infuriating, as Muslims kill, rape and enslave their way across every societal boundary in Europe, our dear leaders line up in some grotesque parade of capitulation........... Why ?
Is it for Saudi oil deals ? I honestly don't know why. Muslims are some 4-5% of our total population now in the UK, the other 95% have to live under 24 hour terror alert. And he can say things like this ?
I can think of many politically expedient reasons for Call Me Dave to make such comments. The most obvious one (to me) is that he's trying to fight negative opinion of his recent anti-ISIS actions. By convincing UK muslims that he empathises with them, he can spin his airstrikes as 'having their best interests at heart'. The last thing he needs is civil unrest at home so if he has islamic opinion split over his motives and the support of the softer liberal crowd he reduces the chance of either any action being taken by pro-islamist groups or general public support for any action taken by those groups.
It's also likely that he's trying to stay in power. This has 2 main aspects to it:
a) being nice to voters
b) limiting the recent progress made by UKIP through combatting marginalisation of the islamic minority
Although ultimately self-serving, the second impact has potential positives. Certainly by making negative comments about islam, he would be feeding the fires that are currently being fanned by the likes of UKIP who are in the process of siphoning-off Conservative voters. I'm for any action that weakens UKIP.
RE: David Cameron copies Ben Affleck's approach to Islamic violence
October 10, 2014 at 7:45 pm
In war, one must draw as many allies as possible while isolating one's enemy as much as possible.
If I were a world leader, I would probably be talking the same way.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
RE: David Cameron copies Ben Affleck's approach to Islamic violence
October 10, 2014 at 9:24 pm (This post was last modified: October 10, 2014 at 9:31 pm by ForumMember77.)
(October 10, 2014 at 7:45 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: In war, one must draw as many allies as possible while isolating one's enemy as much as possible.
If I were a world leader, I would probably be talking the same way.
Lets not beat around the bush, this is a religious war. It's born of Islam.
After ISIS is gone, perhaps over the years as we fight ISIS, another one will appear and another and so on.
Al Qaeda/Hamas/Hezbollah/Al Shabab/PLO, just groups I could name off the top of my head and that have existed in my lifetime.
More over the Muslim demographic is growing faster than every other here, this is as safe as it's ever going to be and the only time we could theoretically do something.
When the Muslim demographic reaches 10 % of the UK population is it going to be easier or harder to address the problems inherent in Islam ?
Polygamy. Female genital mutilation, child brides, preaching terrorism is ok........... all practiced by this group.
Removing them of any social responsibility to change/reform their religion and forcing the rest of the UK residents to live as we do is sickening.
We are going to end up like the Balkans, or worse, Bosnia.
(October 10, 2014 at 6:26 pm)Ben Davis Wrote: I can think of many politically expedient reasons for Call Me Dave to make such comments. The most obvious one (to me) is that he's trying to fight negative opinion of his recent anti-ISIS actions. By convincing UK muslims that he empathises with them, he can spin his airstrikes as 'having their best interests at heart'. The last thing he needs is civil unrest at home so if he has islamic opinion split over his motives and the support of the softer liberal crowd he reduces the chance of either any action being taken by pro-islamist groups or general public support for any action taken by those groups.
It's also likely that he's trying to stay in power. This has 2 main aspects to it:
a) being nice to voters
b) limiting the recent progress made by UKIP through combatting marginalisation of the islamic minority
Although ultimately self-serving, the second impact has potential positives. Certainly by making negative comments about islam, he would be feeding the fires that are currently being fanned by the likes of UKIP who are in the process of siphoning-off Conservative voters. I'm for any action that weakens UKIP.
The last thing he needs to do is tell the truth, how many hard working Britons have to die or have their children interfered with by second/third generation immigrants before we hold them socially responsible?
If he, arguably the most powerful person in politics, can be held ransom by the 4-5% Muslim demographic, what's it going to be like when they 10% or 20% ?
This demographic is growing so fast we will see horrid things happen here before we die, because nobody does anything to confront them.
RE: David Cameron copies Ben Affleck's approach to Islamic violence
October 13, 2014 at 7:17 am (This post was last modified: October 13, 2014 at 7:22 am by Ben Davis.)
(October 10, 2014 at 9:24 pm)ForumMember77 Wrote: Lets not beat around the bush, this is a religious war. It's born of Islam.
True but an oversimplification; that's only one aspect of it. Are cycles of violence in the region fueling retaliation on all sides? What of the meddling that the UK & US did during the 70's & 80's? What of the weapon sales? What of media manipulation? What of the minimal action taken by the UN? What of the oil?
Quote:After ISIS is gone, perhaps over the years as we fight ISIS, another one will appear and another and so on. Al Qaeda/Hamas/Hezbollah/Al Shabab/PLO, just groups I could name off the top of my head and that have existed in my lifetime.
Not all of those groups had the headline purpose of bringing about the new Caliphate but I get your point: unless the root causes are addressed, we'll see continuation.
Quote:More over the Muslim demographic is growing faster than every other here, this is as safe as it's ever going to be and the only time we could theoretically do something.
When the Muslim demographic reaches 10 % of the UK population is it going to be easier or harder to address the problems inherent in Islam ?
Polygamy. Female genital mutilation, child brides, preaching terrorism is ok........... all practiced by this group.
Removing them of any social responsibility to change/reform their religion and forcing the rest of the UK residents to live as we do is sickening.
We are going to end up like the Balkans, or worse, Bosnia.
This is a misrepresentation of islam in the UK. The majority of british muslims are opposed to the actions taken by ISIS. Also the majority do not agree with FGM, child brides or preaching terrorism. Have a look at the most recent stats and read the statements put out by the Muslim Council of Britain. The simple fact is that secular, humanitarian & enlightenment values are being readily adopted by british muslims and although there are extremist groups here, they're failing to gain ground except in the poorest, most marginalised areas of the UK (where the root cause is not islam but the same as the rise of the right: austerity politics increasing the depth of marginalisation). There are apologists in the UK who misrepresent islam in the opposite direction (e.g. the 'religion of peace' crowd). I've not seen any stats on this so I don't know what proportion of 'liberal' UK accept/support those misrepresentations. Most of the people I speak to about this have a balanced view but I don't know if that's representative.
Quote:The last thing he needs to do is tell the truth, how many hard working Britons have to die or have their children interfered with by second/third generation immigrants before we hold them socially responsible?
Our justice system clearly holds both people and systems accountable for their actions and while that system isn't perfect, that's no excuse for fear-mongering.
Quote:If he, arguably the most powerful person in politics, can be held ransom by the 4-5% Muslim demographic, what's it going to be like when they 10% or 20% ?
Dave's not being held to ransom, he simply wants to avoid giving radical groups further excuses to whip up anti-governmental sentiment. That's prudent policy during war.
Quote:This demographic is growing so fast we will see horrid things happen here before we die, because nobody does anything to confront them.
There are no radicalised movements in the UK that are accepted by the mainstream and there are mainstream/popular islamic groups which openly oppose extremism (e.g. MCB). Also an increase in the number of muslims doesn't necessarily mean an increase in the percentage which accept radical/extreme interpretations.
Your final 3 paragraphs are mainly rhetoric & hyperbole and make you sound like you've swallowed quite a bit of anti-islamic propaganda.
RE: David Cameron copies Ben Affleck's approach to Islamic violence
October 15, 2014 at 6:47 am
(October 13, 2014 at 7:17 am)Ben Davis Wrote: This is a misrepresentation of islam in the UK. The majority of british muslims are opposed to the actions taken by ISIS. Also the majority do not agree with FGM, child brides or preaching terrorism. Have a look at the most recent stats and read the statements put out by the Muslim Council of Britain. The simple fact is that secular, humanitarian & enlightenment values are being readily adopted by british muslims and although there are extremist groups here, they're failing to gain ground except in the poorest, most marginalised areas of the UK (where the root cause is not islam but the same as the rise of the right: austerity politics increasing the depth of marginalisation).
It is people like you that are the 'root cause'.
Almost every substantial survey shows there is a large proportion of Muslims in Britain that believe in violence in the name of Islam, some 80+% believed the Danish cartoonists should have been prosecuted......... secularists and humanitarians my bum. All of what you say is provably wrong.
The cause is bad education and being poor, and/or, if our forefathers had have been better neighbours they wouldn't want to kill us.......... ABSULOTELY DISGUSTING ! and the only response its worthy of its to tell you it is
When Sam Harris was talking about political beer goggles stifling peoples perception, with Ben Affleck, he had people like you in mind. You are the 'Ben Affleck' of this conversation.
RE: David Cameron copies Ben Affleck's approach to Islamic violence
October 15, 2014 at 10:44 am (This post was last modified: October 15, 2014 at 10:57 am by Ben Davis.)
(October 15, 2014 at 6:47 am)ForumMember77 Wrote: It is people like you that are the 'root cause'.
Almost every substantial survey shows there is a large proportion of Muslims in Britain that believe in violence in the name of Islam, some 80+% believed the Danish cartoonists should have been prosecuted......... secularists and humanitarians my bum. All of what you say is provably wrong.
Complete bollocks. You don't know what you're talking about. Almost every stat I find shows 20-25% support for/ambivalence to extremist actions meaning 75-80% opposition. Whilst that's a worrying level of support, it means that the overwhelming majority of british muslims oppose extremism.
ICM poll NOP poll Here's a supposedly defamatory list of stats from ReligionOfPeace.com but even the worst they can come up with is 75% opposition to extremism.
And here's a list of stats from Daniel Pipes (anti-islamic blogger). Once again, we see 75-80% opposition to islamic extremism in britain. As it happens, he also includes the '78% support punishing the Danish Cartoonist' stats; those same stats that were criticised for being worded to skew the results in favour of an anti-islamic position. Interestingly, it also includes a number of stats which indicate that non-muslim brits might be less tolerant of muslims brits than muslims brits are of non-muslim brits
Quote:The cause is bad education and being poor, and/or, if our forefathers had have been better neighbours they wouldn't want to kill us.......... ABSULOTELY DISGUSTING ! and the only response its worthy of its to tell you it is
How is it disgusting to listen to what british muslims & sociologists are actually telling us that the problems are? How is it disgusting to look at all the root causes in order to fully understand the issues and devise comprehensive & appropriate solutions?
You know what's disgusting? Social profiling & gross generalisations based on ignorance & fear leading to knee-jerk solutions that cause more harm than good.
RE: David Cameron copies Ben Affleck's approach to Islamic violence
October 28, 2014 at 1:34 am (This post was last modified: October 28, 2014 at 1:42 am by ForumMember77.)
(October 15, 2014 at 10:44 am)Ben Davis Wrote:
(October 15, 2014 at 6:47 am)ForumMember77 Wrote: It is people like you that are the 'root cause'.
Almost every substantial survey shows there is a large proportion of Muslims in Britain that believe in violence in the name of Islam, some 80+% believed the Danish cartoonists should have been prosecuted......... secularists and humanitarians my bum. All of what you say is provably wrong.
Complete bollocks. You don't know what you're talking about. Almost every stat I find shows 20-25% support for/ambivalence to extremist actions meaning 75-80% opposition. Whilst that's a worrying level of support, it means that the overwhelming majority of british muslims oppose extremism.
ICM poll NOP poll Here's a supposedly defamatory list of stats from ReligionOfPeace.com but even the worst they can come up with is 75% opposition to extremism.
And here's a list of stats from Daniel Pipes (anti-islamic blogger). Once again, we see 75-80% opposition to islamic extremism in britain. As it happens, he also includes the '78% support punishing the Danish Cartoonist' stats; those same stats that were criticised for being worded to skew the results in favour of an anti-islamic position. Interestingly, it also includes a number of stats which indicate that non-muslim brits might be less tolerant of muslims brits than muslims brits are of non-muslim brits
Quote:The cause is bad education and being poor, and/or, if our forefathers had have been better neighbours they wouldn't want to kill us.......... ABSULOTELY DISGUSTING ! and the only response its worthy of its to tell you it is
How is it disgusting to listen to what british muslims & sociologists are actually telling us that the problems are? How is it disgusting to look at all the root causes in order to fully understand the issues and devise comprehensive & appropriate solutions?
You know what's disgusting? Social profiling & gross generalisations based on ignorance & fear leading to knee-jerk solutions that cause more harm than good.
Your logic is awesome and your data to back it up is very suspicious, the first link suggests some 40% of those asked thought Sharia should become the law in Britain........ yeah, are you supposed to be countering me with this. How does this help you again. And are you saying 20-30% in support of extremism isn't a large proportion, I wasn't sure on the figures but I would even say those are conservative. Tell me again, what of what I said was gonads, because you haven't specified. You just went on a rant.
And your second one from Channel 4, a source I wouldn't trust as you'll see why, suggests it around 30% in favour of Sharia. Whilst trying to butter people up to the idea, arguing Sharia isn't all that bad............I'm not joking, have you read these links ?
